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Post by Kana on Dec 19, 2006 10:39:23 GMT 10
April wasn't created as simply a yes girl, he gave her thoughts and feelings, she was made to love him. He loved Katrina and prefered that relationship because it was real - a girl really loved him I think the key is in the double entendre title, she was made to love her. He made a girl to answer to his every whim and get hurty feelings when she didn't obey!!!! This is control in my opinion not love. He did most likely love Katrina but he still resorted to bullying tactics to keep the truth from her. There is no excuse for that. This isn't treating a woman with respect, he doesn't really grow in this episode. Well this is just it. This shows lack of growth, he wants a yes person not a real person to love. He didn't feel remorse after her death, he still considered her a thing. Well it's how we deal with things when they get tough that defines us. If he was truly a well adjusted person he wouldn't have done any of this in the first place. It's simply about the physical act, it's about dominance and subjugation. He wanted to dominate the Slayer to make him look like the big man. And they are not blameless but in terms of character consistency, Jonathan does show remorse and is willing to accept responsibility. Andrew shows himself to be more weakwilled and impressionable. Warren has shown himself to be someone who gets off on the power the most and it seems consistent with what we've seen. Well I personally don't get off on being dominant but controlling a woman is not love in my opinion, it's about insecurity and self hatred/grandeur.
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Post by Shaun on Dec 19, 2006 10:53:20 GMT 10
I think the key is in the double entendre title, she was made to love her. He made a girl to answer to his every whim and get hurty feelings when she didn't obey!!!! This is control in my opinion not love. He did most likely love Katrina but he still resorted to bullying tactics to keep the truth from her. There is no excuse for that. This isn't treating a woman with respect, he doesn't really grow in this episode. Warren's view on what love is was wrong, yeah. And I never said he respected women, but I don't believe he was a woman hater. His relationship with Katrina was going along fine until she found out about April, so presumably he was treating her fine before that. His actions in keeping the truth from her were because he knew it would cost him his relationship. It was wrong, and sick, but he wanted the truth hidden because he did love Katrina. No he wanted a real person to love, otherwise he would have made another machine. He didn't understand love very well and was an asshole but I still don't think he was a woman hater. He didn't show remorse, he was drunk on power by that stage. I don't believe he saw her as a thing, he wanted her any way he could have her and by that stage had talked himself out of it being wrong. Sure. I agree with that. He wants to be more powerful than anyone, not just the Slayer. He has power issues, thats not about hating women, thats about hating anyone who is better or stronger than him. Yeah, gets off on power. He wants to control everyone, and everything. I don't either And I agree its not love, but people like Warren have different interpretations on what love is. Before Katrina dumped him he had that, and once he lost it he became obsessed with her and lost any sense of reality that he had once had when it came to love. All of this shit makes him an idiot, selfish and a bad person but I don't think he's a woman hater.
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Post by Kana on Dec 19, 2006 12:03:06 GMT 10
Well I would say he's a misogynist. Misogyny is multilayered. Most don't have a "I hate women" tag on their shirt, it goes deeper than that. The point I'm making is that the development of Warren as a person who saw women as objects (a product of misogyny) didn't come ex nihilo, there were signs. It all seems pretty consistent to me, if not a little radical. Warren was a misogynist with sociopathic tendencies in my opinion. Misogyny doesn't have to be exclusive from overall control. He's demonstrated an overall need for control but he's demonstrated a greater need to dominate women as sexual slaves and as objects and this is the key, this is what makes him a misogynist.
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Post by James on Dec 20, 2006 10:05:59 GMT 10
Naw I never saw him as a mysogynist. He never tried to control Katrina when they a couple, she too strong for that and it never looked like he wanted to. He left robot girl for a girl who was his equal, not something a mysogynist would do. He would stayed with the robot who would do whatever he want but chose real girl, equal to himself. he never want to control her til he hooked up with trio. that only time he showed the want to dominate women and unlike other trio members who also saw it as not wrong, they smart boys no matter how trusting or scared, he only wanted to use it on one girl. it wasnt women he wanted to dominate, only the one girl coz he want her too much that it made him go crazy. buffy was different, she was the slayer he wanted to be stronger than the superhero, not the woman.
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Post by Beck on Feb 11, 2007 16:13:15 GMT 10
Well going back on topic, which characters did people love, and which were hated?
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Post by shred on Feb 11, 2007 17:49:56 GMT 10
Buffy is one character that I love. She may have her flaws but that is what made her such a great character. I don't really have a hated character because I liked every character on the show. I don't hate any of the main characters. But if we were talking about minor characters, I'll go with Kennedy. I won't say I hate her but I can surely do without her.
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Post by Allan on Feb 11, 2007 21:08:16 GMT 10
Faith's perhaps my favourite character from the entire Buffyverse. She's just so flawed, and seeing her hit rock bottom and slowly bringing herself back up is one of the greatest character arcs.
As for anyone I hate, I can't think of anyone. It took me a little while to warm to Anya, but I soon learned to love her. Even characters like Warren, who were quite horrible were human enough to not be hated.
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Post by Paul on Feb 12, 2007 0:39:51 GMT 10
i havnt got a favorite character, but as least fave im gonna have to pick dawn or early wes, no reason in particular except they both annoyed the hell out of me,
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Post by shred on Feb 12, 2007 1:02:05 GMT 10
i havnt got a favorite character, but as least fave im gonna have to pick dawn or early wes, no reason in particular except they both annoyed the hell out of me, Oh! Speaking of Dawn reminded me of how much I dislike Conner! I couldn't stand him in season 3 and 4. He was just too boring and whiny. He was a lot more enjoyable in season 5 though.
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Post by Beck on Feb 12, 2007 7:39:05 GMT 10
I dislike him too, but he's an Ats character not a BtVS one
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jeanvic
Courtier
Posts - 179
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Dec 30, 2006 11:14:25 GMT 10
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Post by jeanvic on Feb 12, 2007 7:53:56 GMT 10
Well, I ain't to popular on this site so I will try and get into people's good books with this post. Hopefully you will all see the puppy inside of me. My favourite character on Btvs was Angel. He was better on his own show but on Btvs he was the dark, conflicted guy that you didn't know much about. He was an anti hero. He reminds me very much of Batman who is my favourite superhero. That is my reason for that. I know a lot of you think I hate Spike. I don't, believe me. I do like Spike so he won't be my answer for this one. I actually canot stand Xander. He is arrogant, selfish and I hated the way he treated Angel. I mean, he didn't tell Buffy that Willow was going to do the spell and he could never see that Angel was completely separate from Angelus. I just didn't like him. In fact, the only time I think I have liked him was when he defeated Dark Willow with love. That was just a nice moment but it doesn't diminish what I dislike about him. Well that's my two cents.
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Post by Beck on Feb 12, 2007 7:56:40 GMT 10
Aww I love Xander. True he made a mistake with not telling Buffy about the spell, but I don't blame him for the way he treated Angel, especially after he turned evil. And to his credit, he did still work alongside Angel despite his distrust and dislike of him.
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Post by Allan on Feb 12, 2007 8:39:19 GMT 10
Xander's made mistakes, but every character on the show has. I really think he's the "everyman" that she show needs.
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Post by Nico on Feb 12, 2007 9:12:39 GMT 10
lol Alex, I love how your thinking is almost the exact opposite from quite a few btvs fans , Variety is indeed the spice of life . I was going to ask, who is everyones least favourite from the main cast (scoobies). Not including Dawn! , so Buffy,Giles, Willow,Tara, Xander and Anya.
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Post by Allan on Feb 12, 2007 9:15:02 GMT 10
Definitely Tara. She's like season one Willow, without the "cute" wallflower factor. Just "boring" wallflower.
And that came out a little harsh. I don't hate the character, but she's definitely my least favourite of the ones you listed.
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Post by Glenn on Feb 12, 2007 9:16:16 GMT 10
Tara, dull as the water that has been used to clean dishes. Also had a poor affect on the character of Willow, making her merely a background character in seasons four and five. And then her treatment of Willow in season six as well.
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Post by Nico on Feb 12, 2007 9:22:03 GMT 10
Maybe I shouldve taken Tara out of the List to , I would have to agree with you both, Tara never really fitted in, she was great with willow, Until the hard times came ofc, Probably why I wasnt to upset when she was killed off, I Was upset for Willow, for how much it hurt willow, but thats about it
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Post by Allan on Feb 12, 2007 9:25:46 GMT 10
I agree about Tara's death. I love Willow, and that scene proved that Alyson Hannigan's a brilliant actress, but it was all about Wllow's reaction...
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Post by Lizzie on Feb 12, 2007 20:58:27 GMT 10
Tara, dull as the water that has been used to clean dishes. That really does describe her best. She was nice, but booooooring. Tara and Willow weren't interesting. They were just blah and couple-y. Tara's death really livened things up as far as Willow's character goes. Yay evil Willow!
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Post by shred on Feb 13, 2007 0:32:48 GMT 10
I dislike him too, but he's an Ats character not a BtVS one Well, I couldn't think of any BtVS characters that I dislike so I dragged Conner in. My favourite character on Btvs was Angel. He was better on his own show but on Btvs he was the dark, conflicted guy that you didn't know much about. He was an anti hero. He reminds me very much of Batman who is my favourite superhero. That is my reason for that. I'm with you on that one. I prefer Angel in BtVS more than on his show. I started disliking him from season 2 onwards. I don't know why but I found him more interesting in Buffy than on Angel. Well, I gotta disagree with you there. I don't think Xander was arrogant or selfish. I could understand why he treated Angel the way he did. He was jealous that Angel had Buffy and he didn't. And after Jesse, it's understandable that he wouldn't trust Angel because he's a vampire. Tara, dull as the water that has been used to clean dishes. That really does describe her best. She was nice, but booooooring. Tara and Willow weren't interesting. They were just blah and couple-y. Tara's death really livened things up as far as Willow's character goes. Yay evil Willow! I found Tara boring as well. A lot of times she was with Willow and I don't think she could stand on her own. Even when they broke up, we saw so little of her. It just shows that she doesn't have an interesting character to hold an episode by herself. I never liked Willow and Tara together. I prefered Willow with Oz. There was a much more interesting story going on between Willow and Oz than Willow and Tara did. I'm probably one of the few people who didn't care that she died. Heh. Guess I found another BtVS character that I hate. ;D
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