The Initiative.....did they have the right idea?

[Glenn]

Split from: Cordelia%27s+Evolution+-+for+better+or+worse%3F

kana said:

As for the Spike issue, I had no problem with his development apart from how it calls the whole soulless vampire issue into question, which when you think about it could put Buffy's whole mission into question.

Just saw this post from Paulo and it got me thinking about how a soulless vampire was able to do good so i thought i would start a thread asking the simple question. Did The Initiative have the right idea by chipping vampires? Look what it did for Spike, i mean yes he had perculiar circumstances after being chipped but was he just an anomoly or could a large percentage of other vampires too, be converted to the side of good.

[Kana]

That's a good question and the short answer is I don't know. Spike has tried on many occasions to get his chip out and his actions in As You Were could have led to many deaths.

The first thing to consider is would every vampire do what Spike did? Spike stated himself that he didn't have 'evil' as his core belief system which would allow him to be more adaptable. Does it depend on the amount of humanity the vampire has (think The Judge).

Another thing I have to question is whether or not The Initiative's interests lie within the realm of justice. If I remember correctly the chip had a shelf life and was killing Spike by Season 7, so do they simply view vampires as science experiments with option of using their findings for their own gain? Is it all about power and control? In which case could they use vampires for purposes that Buffy etc wouldn't consider justice?

Really not sure. Would have to get back to you on that one.

[Nico]

I thought it was a really terrible Idea, I'm suprised they did it, the storyline was absolutely fantastic, but I think the initiative messed up on that odea (of course this is ignoring the fact SPike saved Sunnydale and the world) .

Season 5, "Fool for Love" Drusilla enabled Spike to feed, not by removing his chip, actually im not sure what happend at that point, but Im guessing it was mental strength, she made him believe there was no pain, if he hadnt spent so much time around buffy, and fallen for her, he couldve fed at Drusillas side.

Like Kana said, the chip did seem to have a shelf life since in Season 7 there started to be problems, although I think thats something the initiative didnt know about, as I think the guy said to buffy "we can repair it or remove it", there was no "replace" it, so unless it was set to malfunction at some point, that to me makes it sound like its faulty.

but I also cant be 100% sure, its a toughie.

[Deleted]

If we're simply looking at "Could other vampires that are chipped be converted for good?" I'd say it's a possible yes. It depends, though, on how much the vampire really wants to be converted, as the chip doesn't have the power to control that.

Also, though, we've seen ways around it (the Drusilla/Spike thing in "Fool for Love") and it doesn't seem to have a lifetime guarantee. So, who's to say that the vampires won't revert back once their chips are inactive? And, just because a vampire is chipped doesn't mean he can't still do evil, right? There are other ways they can continue to fight on the side of evil.

Of course, as to the thread's title, I can't say. Did they really have this chip idea to send them back out as "reformed" vamps, or did they have ulterior motives (I remember army recruitment being mentioned, though that may have been in a different conversation and not within the show itself) and felt the best way of getting what they wanted was to chip them so no harm could be done to them--not so much caring about the rest of the world?

[Veverka]

haffner280 said:

(I remember army recruitment being mentioned, though that may have been in a different conversation and not within the show itself)

Yes, well that was Maggie's idea, right? But how far up that went is not quite clear, but to me it seems pretty canon that they wanted to use the monsters for military advantage.

Plus, as we've seen when Riley came back with Sam, they were chasing after a monster that they didn't want being used by other military forces.

[Allan]

Hmm... This is a tough call. In a way it's similar to animal cruelty, making them suffer for their natural instincts. But logically, it's probably a very good idea.

It'd be interesting to see what people's opinions would be like if it was something that was hapening in the show without the emotional pull of it happening to a much loved character.

[Laura]

I would say it was a good idea as well. The Initiative failed to see any human nature in vampires, so they did what they thought was right. They treated them like the animals they were. They limited their ability to feed, but why didn't they just kill the vampires? Why didn't they just stake Spike and get it over with, instead of trying a new chip idea which could have failed?

[Allan]

It's the Government, so they'd probably want to experiment on the vampires! That, and what's more humane? Killing them, or stopping them from killing?

[Laura]

Yes, true, but vampires are not humane at all! Here we are sentencing people to death, yet vampires in the Initiative were kept alive to experiment on? They are like animals.

[Glenn]

I dont know about that Laura. Look how Spike was able to behave when he had the chip. He certainly proved he was more than just simply an animal.

[Laura]

nopowerintheverse said:

I dont know about that Laura. Look how Spike was able to behave when he had the chip. He certainly proved he was more than just simply an animal.

No, I am saying the Initiative treated them like animals. They only kept them around for experimenting. They obviously weren't (some). If you look at Angel with a soul, Spike with a chip, you will see that.

Sorry about the confusion .

[Glenn]

Yeah but you alse said that they are not in any way humane. Spike protected Dawn when Buffy was dead. Plus he didnt hand her over to the demons in Bargaining when she was being annoying. That is pretty humane

[Laura]

nopowerintheverse said:

Yeah but you alse said that they are not in any way humane. Spike protected Dawn when Buffy was dead. Plus he didnt hand her over to the demons in Bargaining when she was being annoying. That is pretty humane

Are you refearing to the "they treated them like the animals they were?" I meant they treated them as animals (which I would categorize them as, sometimes), but that doesn't mean all vampires must act like an animal. Does that make sense to you?

[Glenn]

I am referring to

bringonthenight said:

Yes, true, but vampires are not humane at all!

[Laura]

nopowerintheverse said:

I am referring to

bringonthenight said:

Yes, true, but vampires are not humane at all!

LOL. Wow, I really don't know what I meant to say there. I think I meant vampires aren't human, therefore why show humanity toward them? True, animals aren't human either, but they do intentionaly target humans like vampires do.

Plus, most vampires are not humane, at least the vampires that the Initiative catch aren't.

[Allan]

In the grand scheme of things, Spike was more humane than most.

[buffymanic]

umm can't believe I missed this first time round.

I think the Initiative we're doing what they thought was best but in a kind of bungled way. They should never have durgged their soldiers, even if it did make them stronger it put them at a disadvantage in the long run. As far as chipping dangerous demons and such it was a good idea and perhaps better than simple eradicating them all.

Unfortunately they had a nutter running the show so they neer stood a chance at trying to understand and differentiate between different demons, perhaps if someone else was in charge in time it would have made Sunnydale safer

[Bre]

I don't think they knew what they were dealing with, like Forrest told Ryley once, demons were just animals, not realizing most of them are evil beings from Hell.

I think it was good in the sense they were keeping demons from people, but they were doing it all wrong.

[shred]

nopowerintheverse said:

Split from: Cordelia%27s+Evolution+-+for+better+or+worse%3F

kana said:

As for the Spike issue, I had no problem with his development apart from how it calls the whole soulless vampire issue into question, which when you think about it could put Buffy's whole mission into question.

Did The Initiative have the right idea by chipping vampires? Look what it did for Spike, i mean yes he had perculiar circumstances after being chipped but was he just an anomoly or could a large percentage of other vampires too, be converted to the side of good.

On paper and from how Spike turned out to be later in the seasons, I do think The Initative did have the right idea by chipping vampires. But we don't know how the other vampires who have been chipped reacted to it. Or was Spike the only vampire that was chipped? I think if we knew what happened to the other vampires that were chipped (if Spike wasn't just the only one), then we would know whether chipping vampires is the right way to go or not.

But if you think about it, Spike didn't turn good because of the chip. I feel that he turned good because of Buffy and his love for her. So it's hard to say whether other vampires would turn out like Spike.

It's a tough question, honestly, as we have very little information to play with.

[Glenn]

A possible upside to the chipping is that, demonstrated by Spike, a Vampire's natural urge to kill and destroy could potentially lead to the chipped vampires waging war against demons just to quench their bloodlust. Could make things easier for the Slayers