Willow and Tara

[Allan]

But if Tara truly loved Willow the way she said she did, then surely she would have wanted to help Willow get better. Instead, she did the easy thing, and then came back when Willow was doing better.

I agree that technically it wasn't Tara's responsibility, but if you love someone, then you do what you can to help them get through tough times. Tara didn't do that, she took the easy way out.

To me, it indicates one of the following: Tara was weak; or she didn't love Willow as much as she said she did.

[Bre]

Obviously what Tara did helped, because as you say, she came back when Willow was doing better, which proves Tara leaving wasn't that bad for Willow as you say it is.

And it's not taking the easy way. You can try and try to help them, but if they don't listen to you or at least try to change, there's not a whole lot else to do. You think it was easy for Tara to leave Willow? Of course not, she loved Willow and I'm sure she missed her and wanted to be with her but then Willow never would have understood what she did was wrong.

[Kana]

I can see both sides. Sometimes staying is actually the worst thing you can do for both of you. Sometimes the best thing is to split up with someone in that sense because they may potentially use you as a life line and not necessarily on purpose which can be bad for both of you.

The problem with Willow is that it wasn't just an illness, there was an element of Willow's personality adding to the problem. There are issues with self esteem, narcissism and like Bre and I said before even abuse. I definitely don't think someone is obligated to stay under those circumstances.

I also believe that we can't just assume that not staying means you don't love someone.

Was it the easy choice? Neither option was easy. Stay with someone you cannot trust or leave someone you love.

[Laura]

It may not seem right for Tara to leave Willow like that, but I wouldn't say she was abandoning her. I would say she was doing what she thought was best. If Tara continued to stay with Willow, then Willow may not have understood the severity of the situation. Tara leaving caused Willow to get worse, which eventually lead to her getting better. It was something Willow had to do by herself imo.

[Forsaken]

I think in part Tara left because she told Willow she would. She was trying to show there are consequences. I also think it clearly backfired and was the wrong choice. You NEVER give up on someone you love, even if it just looks like you are.
It's also very egotistical for Tara to think that her leaving would make Willow see the error of her ways. I firmly believe that Tara did love Willow (and vice versa) but I also feel that Tara's reasons for loving Willow were flawed. Tara loved Willow because Willow made her feel better about herself. This is clearly stated in the first part of their song and many other (slightly more subtle) places. In a way Tara was addicted to Willow when you think about it. Interesting thought isn't it? That means that Tara leaving was her breaking her own addiction. hmmm, more thought needed.

[Bre]

Tara loved Willow because Willow made her feel better about herself.

I don't think that's true. I think Willow just helped Tara feel more comfortable in her skin. She brought the best out in Tara. Which is not a flaw in any relationship.

[Shaun]

The person you love should make you feel better about yourself. Thats not a reason for loving someone, its a result of being in love. I've already stated my opinions on Tara leaving Willow, and I still believe it was a very wrong thing for Tara to do. Sure she loved Willow, but not enough to stay when things got too rough.

[Allan]

Agreed, Shaun. Tara was leaving Willow was like someone leaving an alcoholic partner because things got too tough, and in the end it serves nothing than making life easier for the person who left.

Which, I think has been stated in the thread before (it feels like we're running around in circles here ).

[Bre]

This is just to make a point, and has nothing to do with sympathy. So speaking of alcoholics, my uncle (who I don't know very well) was, well is, one, and my parents told him if he got treatment and help that we'd help him pay for all his bills and groceries, etc. Well he did for a while, but that didn't work so well. Because he stopped the treatment and starting drinking again, my parents told him dozens of time to get treatment, but he just got worse and worse. They were there for him and everything, but he didn't do anything to change. Why should they have stayed and just see him get more miserable and miserable? In my opinion, I don't think my mother should have to stay by his side if all he is going to do is abuse alcohol. I mean they obviously still check up on him, but that's about all they can do. And that's the same scenario with Willow and Tara. Tara shouldn't have had to stay with Willow if Willow wouldn't even try to stop abusing her magics.

And I think this keeps going in circles because it's the only interesting thing to happen in their relationship.

[Shaun]

Tara didn't stick around for very long or try very hard. There is a difference between trying for months to help and then being forced to accept they aren't willing to get help yet, and leaving after one attempt to get them to stop. I have known alcoholics very close to me and I would never walk away that quickly. You do everything you can before throwing it in and walking away. There were other options to Tara, she didn't try talking to Willow's friends and making them aware of the problem, and she didn't try very hard to talk to Willow about her addiction prior to their big fight about it. She had concerns for a long time before she tried seriously talking to Willow.

[Kana]

I must admit I am still torn because those are both good arguments.

Tara isn't the most confrontational person and she didn't force the issue, she just issued an ultimatum and then left when Willow slipped. Considering her experience in magic couldn't she have showed more concern when the signs presented themselves? It was always hinted but never really addressed properly. There is no real effort to help Willow with her addiction. As was said, she didn't talk to anyone else about it.

However the other side of the argument is just as strong if we make Willow responsible for her actions. The issues behind the addiction are what need to be addressed and I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say there are elements of disrespect and egotism. This is especially evident when she's talking to Giles and while this comes from insecurity it is no excuse to do what she did. From this side of the argument Tara leaving off her own free will is no way as bad as Willow trying to make Tara stay literally against her own free will. I think Bre used the example of a drunk hitting their partner. There are differences (well actually in terms of magic and the consequence Willow's actions are potentially worse) but the issues of control and abuse are still prevalent. Should you be obligated to someone who abuses you?

Hmmm tough call, but I don't think it means that she didn't love Willow. Xander left Anya at the alter but I don't think that means he didn't love her and without getting pedantic by saying they were different situations, the point is both Tara and Xander perhaps could have handled it better but to say that it means she didn't her is a little dogmatic imo.

I really do understand both views though. Tara really should spoken up sooner and louder. However when Tara did tell her she doesn't even treat her with respect by listening, she makes life easier for herself by more or less controlling her will. Just an illness or is there an element of personality there? But even if it the latter are those things something she can work on?

[Allan]

I don't think there's any denying that Willow was responsible, at least to some degree. But to me, Tara just didn't try very hard. It wasn't a case of her trying for months and then having to leave Willow, it was leaving when the situation got tough. She didn't spend any time trying to help Willow, she just got out of the situation.

ariensun said:

And I think this keeps going in circles because it's the only interesting thing to happen in their relationship.

Well, that and Tara getting shot.

[Kana]

I'm sorry but I don't think it's that simple. Leaving when someone abuses you possibly in the worst way I simply see as weak. If someone cheats on someone else, and they leave is that necessarily leaving when things get tough. Don't get me wrong, maybe there was more Tara could have done but I totally understand her leaving so as to not get violated again. It must be hard to be with someone you don't trust and who shows you little respect.

EDIT: sorry about that I meant to say I DON'T simply see it as weak. So everything else stands.

[Loz]

I don't understand, you are contradicting yourself. You think its weak that someone leaves when they are abused but you totally understand her leaving??

I don't really care about Tara and Willows relationship (or Tara in general for that matter). I found it snore-worthy frankly. But I do think it was dodgy for Tara to leave as soon as she did. She really didn't try to help Willow when Willow was very clearly in need of a lot of it. She ignored the signs that Willow was abusing magic for a long time before she spoke up. Actually, she somewhat selfishly waited until she was personally affected to say something

[Kana]

Like I said before I don't see Willow as the innocent party. I agree that Tara should have spoke up sooner, however I think Willow's abuse of Tara is something that cannot be ignored. Magic isn't simply inherently addictive, it's the power that Willow got from it that she was addicted to and the sense of how it made her feel. She admitted as much and this was Willow's issue, not simply a problem or an illness. This isn't too far removed from another Btvs villain and that's Warren. Coming from a place of insecurity isn't an excuse for abuse. Maybe Tara didn't understand it on that level or maybe she was unable to articulate it. It wasn't that Willow was using too much magic, it was the manner in which she was using it and placing a "Shut up bitch, talk when I want you to talk" spell on your girlfriend goes beyond 'Things getting rough" imo.

[Lizzie]

ariensun said:

Tara loved Willow because Willow made her feel better about herself.

I don't think that's true. I think Willow just helped Tara feel more comfortable in her skin. She brought the best out in Tara. Which is not a flaw in any relationship.

I think that Tara just wanted to be loved. Willow loved her, but Tara knew she still had to do what was best for both of them - break up. I think that makes Tara quite strong .