Angel's Return

[Shaun]

Vampires heal fast.

You're a worry Lauren I dislike most of the romance scenes. And that scene with the cross is completely corny.

[Loz]

It is in no way corny. Its hot. And at the same time kinda sad. Its the whole forbidden love thing.
I was out when that ep first aired but i taped it. I came home at like 2 in the morning and watched it three times in a row. I love it.

[buffymanic]

yeh I totally agree, Angel is my 2nd favorite of season 1 and is also what set me off on my Angel obsession! That scence wasn't corny at all, it set the bench mark for all the pain + suffering + lusting Buffy and Angel we're going to have to endure over 3 seasons.

Same with the Amends speech I didn't find it corney because I was so engrossed in the story- but if you just look at it on paper or don't get yourself so deep in what their saying then it will sound corny

[tinkerbell]

I agree too! I don't think Angel and Buffy were corny, it was so romantic! I cried my eyes out during amends and the scene with the cross - definately hot.

[Lexie]

I don't find Angel and Buffy corny, either,especially in the scenes mentioned. I'm a sucker for the romance there, the forbidden love and all that. Plus, I love Angel's innocence, he's never known love before and in the beginning he doesn't know how to handle it exactly. I found it really endearing.

That's off topic, though!

I go back and forth with who I think brought Angel back from Hell. Both arguments make a lot of sense. The PTB needs Angel and The First needed Angel and I think both have the power to do it. That's why it's so hard for me to decide. I lean more towards the Powers, though. I think The First just stumbled upon what it saw as an ideal situation and tried to work it into it's favor. And the Powers did save Angel at the end of the episode with the snow.

By the way, does that piss anybody else off? I mean I know it's insignificant in the scheme of things really, but just because it snows doesn't mean the sun isn't going to come out!

[Paul]

i reckon it was the powers, the first tried to get rid of angel so why bring him back

[Deleted]

I agree, Lexie, that both arguments can be pretty convincing. I've always leaned toward the PTBs being responsible, though. After all, the First was manipulating him in "Amends," much like it manipulated Spike in season 7, and tried to convince him to kill himself. Why would the First bring him back just to kill him again? I think the First was just aware of the situation and tried to use it to its advantage.

[Sammy]

I voted that it was the PTB, because the first wouldn't have brought him back because he was too much of a liability. The PTB however knew that he would one day get to make a difference in the world! hehe I love Angel, and their love is not corny and .

[Lexie]

I don't think the First wanted Angel dead. It, like so many others, wanted Angel evil and, of course, wanted him to kill Buffy. As I said, I think it stumbled upon what it saw as an ideal situation and tried to use it to it's advantage. (And, of course, have a little evil fun) When it saw that Angel was going to kill himself it didn't really care anymore. It was dissapointed and pissed that the plan didn't work, but wasn't going to intervene.

EDIT: I also don't think the First saw Angel as a liability, it saw him as something it could use for evil.

[Deleted]

Yeah, I can see that, Lexie. I haven't seen the episode in a while, to be honest, so the details are a little fuzzy, but I always thought it was the First that wanted Angel dead. But what you're saying seems right, too, so I'm sure I'm just remembering wrong.

I think the PTBs and the First were really just very good at playing off what the other was doing and were trying to use the situation to the best of their advantage.

[buffymanic]

Yeh Lexie's right initially the First was trying to turn Angel evil and didn't predict that he would choose to die rather than hurt Buffy. I guess when it realised that the plan had failed it figured a dead champion was better than nothing

[Beck]

I still think it was the First who brought him back, and he tried to turn Angel evil again. When he couldnt do that, death was a fine alternate option. But I do think it was the PTB that brought about the snow. And I'm with Lexie - the sun should still have come out

OK so if it was the PTB that brought Angel back - why didn't they intervene earlier than with the snow? They were taking a heck of a chance that their hero would turn again!

[Kana]

It could go either way. Presumably, both the First and the PTBs knew about the prophecy. So Angel could turn or he could carry on or start being a champion, so both would have an interest because either way Angel was going to be a player in the Apocalypse.

[buffymanic]

Yeh but if they would want Angel on their side so it would have served in their best interest to have acted sooner.

I have a hard time figuring out exactly the extent of the PTB's powers because there have been numerous times where a situation they could have done things to solidify Angels power as a force of good but they haven't acted

[Kana]

That's exactly what I'm saying. We don't the extent of their powers and we don't know why they do the things they do. Sometimes they are distant sometimes they intervene too much (Jasmine) so we can't necessarily deduce that the powers had nothing to do with bringing him back.

Why didn't the PTBs act earlier? Why don't they intervene more (but not as much as Jasmine.) These are the questions that have always been asked. I still think the PTBs could have brought him back. Because we don't know enough about them we can't assume they had nothing to do with it.

[shred]

I always thought that The First was the one who brought Angel back. I believed The First in Amends when it said that it brought him back. But the more I watched the season again and that ep again, I realised more and more that it could be the PTB that could be responsible.

Honestly, it can be anyone. Maybe even Wolfram & Hart. All three of them have the motive to bring Angel back.

Unless Joss comes out and tells us, it's hard to pinpoint who's responsible.