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Post by Beck on Oct 3, 2006 14:37:53 GMT 10
Was Wood justified in trying to kill Spike? True Spike did kill his mother. But that was without a soul (heh this is a lot like the Holtz/Angel sitch) and now Spike is souled. Wood obviously understands this concept, cause he wants to fight Spike only when the trigger is activated making him vicious and acting evil again. So his motivation is revenge, not justice for his mother. I'm even more annoyed that he got Giles to help. Bad Giles :n:
Spike wearing the coat though is a big insult - he should have stopped wearing that the second he found out Nikki was Wood's mother.
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Nov 23, 2024 18:43:38 GMT 10
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2006 15:13:27 GMT 10
I definitely agree that continuing to wear the jacket was quite the insult. However, it was also Spike's trademark and, soul or no, did you really expect him to just pack it away in his closet?
About Wood...
I could see why he'd want to kill Spike. I don't think he was right in doing so, but I can see how he'd want revenge. I think the fact that he did enlist Giles to help him shows how much he really wanted to kill Spike. I don't think that because he attempted to kill him when the trigger was active was a sign of him knowing that Spike was souled or that he was doing the wrong thing. I think he chose to do it when the trigger was active for two reasons:
1) to see him how his mother would have likely seen him...basically, to fight the monster that killed his mother.
2) I think he may have thought he had a better chance of winning when the trigger was active. Sure, we knew that Spike had killed people when the trigger was active, but we weren't sure as to how it really worked (as far as I know). It seemed to me that it had more of a sleepwalk effect on him, since he didn't remember what had happened when he killed those people, so maybe Wood thought he'd be somewhat entranced or weakened.
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Post by Beck on Oct 3, 2006 15:22:49 GMT 10
I definitely agree that continuing to wear the jacket was quite the insult. However, it was also Spike's trademark and, soul or no, did you really expect him to just pack it away in his closet? I didnt expect him to... but it was very clear by wearing it still that Spike didn't care much about Wood and what he did to him  Hmm I disagree. I think it was because he wanted to kill the monster that killed his mother - not souled Spike, he realised he had changed cause of the soul. Actually I think he says this?  |
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Post by Kana on Oct 3, 2006 20:45:14 GMT 10
I think Angel said it, best that what he deserves is up for debate. Although the demonic presence which informed Nikki's death was still there, the presence of a soul does change him. Spike could have killed Wood and soulless Spike would have done but he didn't.
Wood does give a convincing Utilitarian arguement. Now think about this...if Wood talks about the greater good he must at least acknowlege or believe on some level that killing a soulled creature like Spike is an act of evil, but in his eyes (or at least according to his argument) a necessary evil. Wood wants to take away some of the moral ambiguity by killing the 'demon' rather than the man.
Compare this to Holtz who deliberately chose to make soulled Angel suffer. He actually thought it was more fitting seen as he couldn't make Angelus suffer in the same way.
Interestingly, Spike killed Nikki, one on one, Slayer vs Demon. Wood wanted a similar showdown.
Angelus calculated the best was to hurt Holtz and 200 odd years later that MO came to bite Angel in the ass. Just an interesting side note.
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Post by Casi on Oct 4, 2006 3:13:45 GMT 10
I may be a little unclear on things as it's been awhile since I watched Season Seven, but I was under the impression that Spike did not know Wood was Nikki's son until he actually told him in Lies my Parents told me. He wears the coat before then, because it is a symbol of the bad ass he had been and still is to some degree. It was symbolic for him, putting it back on and reclaiming that part of his personality (something I'd like to point out Angel never does). But, again, I may be wrong. Maybe he does know.
But I think Spike makes just as good a point as Wood does. Nikki was a slayer, and he was a vampire. They fought because thats what they did. But he's not that demon anymore, that's not the force behind Spike's actions now that he is ensouled. What Wood wanted to do, in my opinion, was far worse than what Spike did in the 70s. Spike followed his nature in those days, hunted, killed. Wood only wanted revenge, and that is not a part of war. If he wants to have a drag out with Spike after all is said and done, that's fine. But it was incredibly selfish of him to try and take out one of their best warriors while the world was falling down around their ears.
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Post by Paul on Oct 12, 2006 18:33:51 GMT 10
but revenge is a strong human instinct, most people would want to kill the murderer of a family member i know i would, id go as far as getting myself put in prison just to get closer to the killer so i could get revenge. i think woods was just following his nature
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Post by Casi on Oct 13, 2006 11:07:32 GMT 10
That's very true, but personal agenda's have no place in a battle of this scale. What would have happened if he HAD killed Spike? Everyone would be dead...the first would have won. His actions jeapordized everyone's lives and he didn't even care. What they were doing, the war they were fighting, it was bigger than him and he needed to accept that. I think he is completely justified in wanted to have it out with Spike, and I slightly respect the fact that he wanted to face the monster, and triggered him with the song. But it still doesn't change the fact that his actions nearly doomed them all.
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Post by Kana on Oct 14, 2006 6:45:19 GMT 10
He does give a convincing Utilitarian argument though. It's difficult to judge an action based upon an unseen future. That is to say at this point they didn't know Spike was going save the world, they didn't receive the amulate until the Chosen so at this point Spike could have been seen as a danger as well as a help. To be honest whether revenge was the motivator or not my main grip with the fact that it was Buffy decision for better or worse.
Thinking about consequentially if they hadn't tried to kill Spike then they might have all been doomed anyway, but they would have to trust that Buffy could put down Spike if it meant he was truly a threat and she's made that decision before (Angel) although not without casulties (Jenny). So although Giles had a good case it was Buffy's choice.
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purity
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Nov 23, 2024 18:43:38 GMT 10
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Post by purity on Oct 21, 2006 1:47:38 GMT 10
So his motivation is revenge, not justice for his mother. However, his motivation for revenge can be seen as wanting justice for his mother. Although I personally don\'t condone Robin Wood\'s actions, I think his reaction was a fairly expected one. You have to consider the fact that he was brought up into a world where the demons and the vampires weren\'t cloaked from him. He was literally witness to the violence when he accompanied his mother on \'slayer patrols\'. He would have seen and learnt that to survive you have to fight back, as a result of such nurturing, his reaction is understandable, whether it is right or not. This reminds of Riley Finn\'s attitude towards vampires and demons during season 4, he had very black and white morals, i.e. vampires = evil. It wasn\'t until he met Buffy and her friends (Anya, Spike- does Spike count?) that he realised there are grey areas and exceptions. This is because he had grown up with one fixed view/moral. Relating this to Wood\'s \'retaliation\' towards Spike, it can be stated that he would want the demon within Spike to be released, so therefore he is not disobeying what he feels is morally right and destroying an innocent. Yet, his primal instincts would pretty much make him want to crush Spike every time he saw him LOL. |
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Post by buffymanic on Oct 21, 2006 1:53:43 GMT 10
yeh but the thing is if Wood was just going of his uinstincts he would have tried to kill Spike the minute he know who he was, he wouldn't have planned it the way he did and he certainly wouldn't have enlisted Giles help
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purity
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Nov 23, 2024 18:43:38 GMT 10
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Post by purity on Oct 21, 2006 2:04:29 GMT 10
yeh but the thing is if Wood was just going of his uinstincts he would have tried to kill Spike the minute he know who he was, he wouldn\'t have planned it the way he did and he certainly wouldn\'t have enlisted Giles help A valid point! What was meant by my previous post (and what came across unclearly...?) was that due to Robin Wood growing up in an environment where he was aware of the evil in the world, would he not be more cunning and calculating in his approach? I certainly think so. |
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Post by buffymanic on Oct 21, 2006 4:32:02 GMT 10
yep that is a good point, Wood maybe realised that he couldn't beat Spike unless he was out of his own environment and into Woods.
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purity
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Nov 23, 2024 18:43:38 GMT 10
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Post by purity on Oct 21, 2006 22:16:03 GMT 10
Wood maybe realised that he couldn\'t beat Spike unless he was out of his own environment and into Woods. Yes, that certainly was the emphasis in the episode. To answer the question, however, I would state that there is little moral justification for Robin Wood\'s attempt to kill Spike. Yet, Spike did manage to irritate Wood by, for example, wearing Nikki Wood\'s coat. That was insensitive and makes one wonder if such an action on Spike\'s behalf is symbolic of the fact that Spike wanted to be put \'out of his misery\' (as it were) by Wood. |
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Post by buffymanic on Oct 21, 2006 23:38:38 GMT 10
I don't think Spike knew Wood was Nikki's son before this so his wearing or the coat wasn't antagonistic at all. Sure after he found out he could have took it off to show respect to Wood and Nikki but thats just not spikes style
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Post by Glenn on Oct 21, 2006 23:53:03 GMT 10
You could say that souled Spike wearing the jacket of a Slayer who's neck he snapped was wrong regardless of whether said Slayer's son was in the area.
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Post by buffymanic on Oct 22, 2006 0:26:41 GMT 10
yeh but it was a part of him and it was a part of his identity. We see all the way throught season 7 that Spike deals with his guilt very differently from Angel, she where Angel would have definately felt to need to make amends with Wood Spike would just rather focus at the problem at hand and then move on
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purity
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Nov 23, 2024 18:43:38 GMT 10
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Post by purity on Oct 22, 2006 0:42:32 GMT 10
yeh but it was a part of him and it was a part of his identity. We see all the way throught season 7 that Spike deals with his guilt very differently from Angel, she where Angel would have definately felt to need to make amends with Wood Spike would just rather focus at the problem at hand and then move on This also reminds me of a statement made by Joss Whedon when discussing the nature of season 7, he claimed that he wanted to differentiate Spike\'s story from Angel\'s, and the jacket example is evident proof of this, I suppose. I agree where somewhere above it was written \'It\'s not Spike\'s style\'. That\'s very true. As for my creating antagonistic parallels towards Spike... I failed miserably  |
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Post by Casi on Oct 23, 2006 16:37:56 GMT 10
You could say that souled Spike wearing the jacket of a Slayer who's neck he snapped was wrong regardless of whether said Slayer's son was in the area. Yeah, but you have to realize that the coat wasn't a symbol of that conquest anymore. It was a symbol of the man he had been, how strong he'd been, how he'd known who he was and what he was doing. That coat wasn't about Nikki for him. It was about regaining a piece of himself that he'd let get buried. Just because he went and got a soul doesn't mean he should forget about the fact that he is not a lapdog....most of the time. |
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Post by shred on May 6, 2007 21:26:03 GMT 10
Wood was driven by revenge, simple as that. Revenge blinded him and he couldn't care less that Spike was souled. But I understand where Wood was coming from. His only family was taken away and if I were him, I would probably have done the same thing.
Maybe it started out as justice for his mother. But the quest probably consumed him and it turned into blind revenged.
It's an interesting story that could have been developed more. For example, show us why Giles would suddenly turn his back on Buffy and her trust and help Wood out. That was just so out of character.
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Post by Kana on May 6, 2007 22:00:33 GMT 10
I PMed this to Jean Vic about Wood/Spike and Holtz/Angelus.
Wood
Wood is an interesting one because he wants to kill soullessSpike and have soulledSpike be released as unavoivable consequence, he wants it pure and simple, human vs demon like the battle with this mother. Interestingly both Wood and Holtz have to contend with the fact their targets are not the monsters they were, in fact by this point Spike has actually saved Wood's life. Wood also tries to justify his killing Spike to Giles. He almost acknowledges Spike a seperate entity when he does this. He claims that Spike's death would further ensure the safety of the group. Giles doesn't disagree. While the trigger was inside Spike he was a threat.
Wood fights Spike and loses once the effects of the trigger have taken care of which Spike sarcastically thanks Wood for.
Spike says that Nikki's death was all part of the game between vampires and Slayers. He won she lost, end of. Is Spike right? I've often argued that vampires are not responsible for their actions but it's uncertain what Spike believes here. If Spike isn't responsible for her death, that's fair enough but Spike should be looking at it from a new emotional perspective. Spike may not be responsible for her death but he clearly understands now with a conscience that Nikki's death meant something other than 'losing the game'. He doesn't kill Wood but taunts him that his mother didn't love him. Not only do I find this the most hurtful thing anyone can say but it may not be accurate. Buffy said would sacrific Dawn to save the world, would he deduce that Buffy didn't love Dawn? I believe Nikki loved her son but also felt a responsibility to her duty. With a soul Spike should have been more sensitive imo, even if he wasn't responsible. The least he could have done is not wear the jacket, in doing so he's showing flippancy towards someone's death. How would Spike feel if some demon who managed to defeat Buffy kept something of hers and used it wore it without a care?
To Wood's credit he fights along Spike in the good fight. Wood is NOT a villain.
Holtz
Holtz also sees Angel isn't the monster he used to be. He acknowledges this and uses it. What irks me about Holtz is that he talks about justice yet he is willing to hurt and kill relatively innocent people just to get to Angel. He even takes an innocent child to hell to hurt Angel. This makes Holtz a villain. Soon has you harm innocent lives in such a quest you simply become a liability to the mission. Holtz was a good yet Angel was totally right when he said a) he is being used for some other purpose than justice and b) there is no justice for what he did to Holtz.
Angel's glib comment about Holtz working with men was interesting because by being somewhat facetious (he is when he says Holtz looks well rested) he realises that Holtz is past being reasoned with. He also notes that Holtz is happy to work with demons if it serves his purposes. A funny note when Angel at this point doesn't realise that Holtz made a deal with a demon.
Holtz recruits men, not because he believes it's the right thing to do, it's because he needs people who will sacrifice themselves. He's willing have his own people die and have them kill Angel's people all for his revenge. I actually believe Holtz thought of himself as corrupted. He talked to Justine about being followed into hell. Interesting side note.
This isn't Angel favouritism, I just think Holtz became a villain. A sympathetic one, but a villain nonetheless.
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