Did Angel become human through Existentialism?

[jeanvic]

Now, this thread was inspired b the workings of my good friend Kana. Kana very much enjoys comparing Spike and Angel because of their extrovert/introvert natures so I thought I would make a thread that explores Angel's existentialism and the way it seemed to make him human in NFA.

Existentialism is a philosophical movement that deals with human freedom. Existentialist thought concerns itself with trying to understand fundamentals of the human condition and its relation to the world around us. Basic questions include, 'what is it like to be a human in the world?' and 'what is the nature of human freedom?'

Existentialism emphasizes action, freedom, and decision as fundamental to human existence; and is fundamentally opposed to the rationalist tradition and to positivism. That is, it argues against definitions of human beings as primarily rational. More generally it rejects all of the Western rationalist definitions of "being" in terms of a rational principle or essence, or as the most general feature that all existing things share in common.

It then follows that, Existentialism tends to view human beings as subjects in an indifferent, objective, often ambiguous, and "Absurd" universe, in which meaning is not provided by the natural order, but rather can be created, however provisionally and unstably, by human beings' actions and interpretations.

Now, if you still have your heads, do you think that this is greatly related to Angel in Not Fade Away. Existentialists believe we are human through our choices and interpretations and how we live in the world. They believe this is what makes us human and Angel gives a very existential speech in Not Fade Away that seems to outline this.

Now Angel is an existentialist. We see it in Lover's Walk when he is reading La Nausée by Jean-Paul Sartre. This book looks at existential angst which Angel is greatly related to. lol.

Do you all think though that Angel was never meant to actually become human as humans go but become human through his interpretations and choices. In my books it would make perfect sense. In a way it all comes together nicely. He discovers he can have positive sex which is a great thing and he becomes human through his choices. It is in a sense redemption that he has been given these two things but it also allows him to continue seeking redemption and making the world a better place like only he can.

What do you all think? (If you still have heads)

[Allan]

I'm going to keep this response brief, since my season 2 post got really long, and I'm supposed to be working right now.

Simply, yes. It wasn't only Angel's soul that lead to him becoming "human", but more the choices throughout that. We've seen flashbacks of Angel throughout his history, after he received his soul, still keeping away from humans, and acting more like an animal.

When he finally decided to make choices, he became more and more "human", even if not physically.

[Kana]

Now, this thread was inspired b the workings of my good friend Kana.

Thanks for the mention, the cheque is in the post. What's that Beck? Stop spamming Kana? Ok sorry.

Kana very much enjoys comparing Spike and Angel because of their extrovert/introvert natures so I thought I would make a thread that explores Angel's existentialism and the way it seemed to make him human in NFA.

Indeed. I much prefer comparing traits rather than discussing who is more of a hero and who is better character because that's always going to be based upon personal traits.

Existentialism is a philosophical movement that deals with human freedom. Existentialist thought concerns itself with trying to understand fundamentals of the human condition and its relation to the world around us. Basic questions include, 'what is it like to be a human in the world?' and 'what is the nature of human freedom?'

Angel's case is wonderfully ironic. He contemplates the nature of being human in the world yet he isn't human but yet his acts 'humanise' him by degrees.

Existentialism emphasizes action, freedom, and decision as fundamental to human existence; and is fundamentally opposed to the rationalist tradition and to positivism. That is, it argues against definitions of human beings as primarily rational. More generally it rejects all of the Western rationalist definitions of "being" in terms of a rational principle or essence, or as the most general feature that all existing things share in common.

That's why Angel a great existential character in the context of his show. Existentialism exercises subjectivism and a lot of his decisions demonstrate a want for personal choice and human dignity.

Angel: Our fate has to be our own, or we're nothing.

It then follows that, Existentialism tends to view human beings as subjects in an indifferent, objective, often ambiguous, and "Absurd" universe, in which meaning is not provided by the natural order, but rather can be created, however provisionally and unstably, by human beings' actions and interpretations.

This why I think Angel is more of an existential show. Are demons evil? It's a matter of subjective reasoning. Darla's journey was also humanising as she accepted the beauty and frailty of humanity until it was taken from her. Angel connection to Darla was one of personal connection and humanisation. The cold objectivism of Utilatarian arguments hold little water for champion of the people accept when he believes the price is too high (Fred)

Now, if you still have your heads, do you think that this is greatly related to Angel in Not Fade Away. Existentialists believe we are human through our choices and interpretations and how we live in the world. They believe this is what makes us human and Angel gives a very existential speech in Not Fade Away that seems to outline this.

Absolutely. Choice is whats us human and absurdity of the odds be damned as long as human dignity is intact. The existentialist says yes when the world says no, the existentialist says try when the world says give up and also I think of Angel's speech in epiphany in which in reaches a positive existential mindset. The world lack meaning so our acts are what humanise us. Alot of people talk about Angel as if he is a mindless slave to PTBs but his victory over Jasmine proves he serves humanity first and the powers second, this show intelligent thought and contemplation. Unfortunately in Season 5 his existentialist thought becomes virtual nihilism with even his role as a champion losing meaning for him.

Now Angel is an existentialist. We see it in Lover's Walk when he is reading La Nausée by Jean-Paul Sartre. This book looks at existential angst which Angel is greatly related to. lol.

Yep.

Angel: I need to know why I'm here.

That was from amends, classic existential question.

Do you all think though that Angel was never meant to actually become human as humans go but become human through his interpretations and choices.

This is why I'd never use the whole 'meant to be' argument. This what I like about Angel's journey, it resonates with ours. Who knows what's meant to be?

In my books it would make perfect sense. In a way it all comes together nicely. He discovers he can have positive sex which is a great thing and he becomes human through his choices. It is in a sense redemption that he has been given these two things but it also allows him to continue seeking redemption and making the world a better place like only he can.

His redemption has to be self defined. I think his redemption comes through positive self regard in terms of his how his actions have meaning for him which is important if you fighting for a cause. It seemed Angel believed redemption is not the prize you receive at the end but ongoing process of serving humanity and reconciling yourself with it. ( that's to all the people who simply say Angel is selfish in his quest for redemption.)

What do you all think? (If you still have heads)

Well, I've pretty much put what I think lol and I very much still have my head. Oh and I've repped you for this thread.

[Veverka]

Okay, nearly lost my head in all that, it's true...!!! whew. what a read. it's morning guys!!! but i entered this thread, of my own free will, which I think is related.

Yes, I think Angel ends up this way. I think initially he wanted redemption, but we see how quickly this all falls apart: from hearing about the Shanshu prophecy in season one and then messing up- pride before a fall in the first ep of season two.

So what I'm saying is that while in season three of Buffy we already sees signs of his existentialist nature, it's only later than Angel evolves towards this, for the purpose of figuring out that the whole point is the fighting and continuing the work for purposes other than redemption.