Character Growth and Development

[Beck]

Its too late for me to form a long and interesting post, but while reading through some threads it has been mentioned a few times about character changes. Most of the characters went through enormous changes, some for the good, some not so good - all a matter of opinion though.

So this thread is to discuss the changes and development the characters on Buffy and Angel had. Which characters growth was most interesting to you? Which did you hate the most? Why? Did you think some characters were ruined by changes? Hate the character you once loved? Love one you hated?

I will actually post my opinions when I am more awake

[buffymanic]

well it seems in other threads that Cordelia's character development has been disliked.

I'm on the other side of the fence, I absolutely loved her development and it seemed very natural after all the things she hsd gone through. What seems interesting to me is how much by season 3 Cordy had embraced the mission and was fully undeniably dedicated to it, where as Buffy is still even by season 7 hankering after a 'normal' life.

Its like Buffy keeps heding in the right direction and the point of embracing it all is getting through to her then all of a sudden she hits a brick wall that bounces her right back and she starts talking about the future, whereas Cordy knows that all her future will ever hold is the fight.

[Glenn]

Well first things first for me...the greatest character development was surely Wesley. Whether you liked his later character or not its hard to deny he travelled the furthest and i personally loved watching his growth. Every aspect of his character i enjoyed and one of the constants for me during the Seasons of Angel is how much i liked to see Wesley. From his starting out as the bumbling Watcher to the 'Rogue' Demon hunter. His friendship that sprouted with Angel (one of the strongest yet least likely friendships we could have imagined) to his pain in season 3 - losing Fred to Gunn then discovering the prophecy - becoming the outcast and a rather unwanted ally in season 4.
Other character developments i enjoyed was Giles - we thought him just a stuffy Watcher who was there solely to get walked on by Buffy. But he made such a huge impact on all the gang, we found about his murky past and then in Season 5 we see what levels he will go to protect the world and his loved ones when he murders a human. Not so great last Season but lets forget about that as quite alot of the characters were tarnished by that Season.

Now the main character who's development i dislike used to be one of my favourite characters - Willow - I loved her quirkiness and her shyness, now we all knew that eventually she would get over that having a friend like Buffy and then having a popular Boyfriend but i still liked her up to that point. But after Season 4 she sort of just drifted away from me. Season 5 Willow didnt provide us with much of anything, she was pretty much Season 4 Willow but with a surprising amount more power in her magical skills. Season 6 is where Willow just takes a dramatic shift for the worse, her bullying of her own friends into resurrecting Buffy using Xanders guilt to persuade him to participate in the spell was shocking. But what turned me off her forever was her threatening of Giles, someone who has been an extra father figure to her for a long time. I couldnt believe it when she did it. Then taking Dawn to Rack's place was just hideous.
Another Character's development i didnt like was Cordelia's. I just missed the Bitch too much. She was gradually turning into Buffy and if she had of ended up with Angel it would have been another Buffy/Angel type relationship.

[buffymanic]

I'll have to disagree about Cordelia she was in no way another Buffy. If her and Angel had got together I seriously doubt it would have been as 'lovey-dovey' as Buffy/Angel. Cordelia still had her brutal honest and sharp whit, but she had grown out of her shallow lifestyle and was able to completely focus on the mission.

The woman Cordelia transformed into from season 1 of Buffy to season 5 of Angel was a lot stronger and independent, she was everything she was before only more mature.

[Sammy]

I think one of the greatest transformations as well was Xander, seeing him be a geek in the 1st season then change in to someone who was so mature in the 7th season, he really was the heart of it all and he matured a lot even though some people didnt see it!!!

[Casi]

I have to agree that Xander really did have amazing character developement. There are so many people who say that his character arc was crap and that nothing really happened with him, but I disagree completely. I think his story, being surrounded basically by superheros all day every day is one of the most compelling that the story has to offer. I mean, just take a moment to think about what the show would have been like if he hadn't been there.

[Deleted]

I agree, Tash. I really liked Cordelia's development. And, unlike some of the other characters, I appreciated that her character wasn't "set back" when we met her again on AtS. She may have been out of the fight for a bit and a little apprehensive, but ultimately was right there with Angel doing what she knew needed to be done. And I agree that Cangel and Bangel would have been two very different relationships. Cordy and Buffy were two very different people and Cordy would have brought different things to the relationship than Buffy did.

I don't find Wesley's and Giles' development to be that intriguing. While we learned more about Giles' past, and while he slowly came to accept that Buffy would not be the slayer he wanted her to be, there was very little else shown to us. I will agree that Wesley's was quite extensive, but some of it I found very hard to stomach, such as Wesley kidnapping Connor. I firmly believe his character wouldn't have done that. I will admit, though, that he came a long way and I did like seeing him as the rogue demon hunter in AtS season 1.

I also found Willow's development hard to stomach after season 4. While I preferred the Willow/Oz relationship, I was glad she found someone to move on with and I, for one, liked Tara's character. (Not at first, but she grew on me.) I really found her transformation into Dark!Willow quite a stretch for her character--even if she had grown since the first season--and even if she was grieving. She was one of the few characters I thought continued to evolve and grow in the seventh season. Of course, after the way she had ended in season 6 there was nowhere to go but up. It was a throw back to season 1, but she didn't completely start over again. And while there were things I disagree with about her character in season 7, it was nice to see her as herself again.

I also agree that Xander grew a lot more than most people claim. I just think that since he was rarely the focus of a storyline or even an episode that it's been pushed into the background in favor of characters whose development has stood out more--Cordelia and Spike, for example--which is a shame.

[buffymanic]

I really liked Dark Willow, I think it was good for the show for one of the main characters to flip out and turn evil, it also had to be a character that you wouldn't expect it from.

Giles had already shown a dark side, it couldn't be Buffy because it goes against the whole show. So it was a toss up between Xander and Willow, I think they made the right choice with Willow

[Kana]

Well I always thought that Buffy's darkside was shown in Season 6. He abusive relationship with Spike was quite shocking, even she thought that there might be something physically wrong with her.

As for Xander and Willow, I agree that they made the right choice. I've always found something immature about Willow, something that could be more easily corruptable. Xander can be thoughtless and makes mistakes but I think at that point he was too grounded to go dark and even if he did, it wouldn't be as of great consequence so, it was always going to be Willow, I think.

[Deleted]

I agree that Willow was the best choice between her and Xander for going evil. It's just my personal opinion that delving deeper into Giles' dark past or retaining the focus on Buffy's character post-resurrection would have been better than turning Willow evil.

Which got me thinking--they were foreshadowing Willow's dependence on magic for a while at that point, and it's her addiction to magic that ultimately lead her to do what she did in the last 3 episodes. But we never see a reasonably decent hint that Willow would take it as far as killing someone. Maybe if the idea of her having a much darker side than we realized had been developed a bit more convincingly before the end of season 6--instead of the sudden change that we were presented--I would have believed the transformation a bit more.

[buffymanic]

She was grieving though, plus she had just got back with the love of her life. When your emotions change so drastically, it can have an awful effect on people. I'd say she flew into a blind rage and couldn't get out of it until Xander pulled her through

[Paul]

my girlfriend hates the whole evil willow business. from the start of the season they were making out that magik was wrong and addictive and evil. as my girlfriend is a wiccan she felt her religion was being attacked. so i wont comment on evil willow, i think the best character growth was wesley for all the reasons stated by glenn

[Kana]

Ok I don't know much about the religion of wicca but in the case of Willow, to me it was more about the abuse of power which I doubt most wiccans would agree with. I suppose power can be used for both constructive and destructive purposes so I'd argue that, that was the point not that simply that Willow was using magic.

[buffymanic]

Ok so we've already discussed Wesley, Cordelia and Willow's development how about we take on Anya. I know now often the topic of debate but thats why I choose her. Think about it she went from a demon to a shallow human trapped in the body of a teenager, the more she was with Xander and the scoobies the more human she because all be it that she was often very blunt and said the wrong thing, then she because a demon again but still retained some humanity through the love she had for Xander and then once again became human again and worked hard to gain everybody's respect back after the issues in selfless.

Thinking about it thats quite a lot for one character to deal with in four and a half years. In the begining she was a little annoying but then she didn't know how to be anything else because she had been a demon for so long and was finding the limitations of being mortal frustrating. Once she appeared again in season 4 I was a little shocked and apprihensive but as it turned out Xander brought the best out in her and visa versa. I think that up untill The Body Anya was alway used as the comic relief, but her speech about not understanding showed the depth that she was capable of and definately expanded her use on the show.

I was glad in season 7 when she was given a storyline that didn't directly involve Xander and during the fight scenes in Selfless I was definately torn as to whether Buffy should kill Anya or not; what I definately did not like was Buffy's willingness to do so! But in the end it all worked out well until of course she died protecting Andrew of all people

[Beck]

Anya changed more than most of the other characters imo. Over four years she learnt what it meant to be human, what it meant to care about people other than herself, and what was right and wrong. I liked seeing the changes in Anya, she wasn't my favourite character but she was definately a fascinating one. I also enjoyed seeing her without Xander in season 7, and she really had finished her character arc and come full circle.

[buffymanic]

Yeh I'd agree there we're really many more places she could have gone after season 7 and I like that about ber character, I find it satisfying that we got to see somebody live out their life that was both bizzar and very ordinary.

[Laura]

I think the person who experienced the most character development was Darla. Let's face it, she started out as a villain, but turned into someone different. Maybe it was just Connor, but she acted like a human, not a vampire. She killed herself to save Connor, which was selfless.

Even if that was Connor, she changed when she was human too. When she was dying, she started out weak. She'd rather be an evil vampire than die. However, after she finally saw that someone cared about her (Angel), she accepted her fate. That took strength.

The character development I hated was Gunn's. It was more of a change than development since he didn't even develop on his own, he had to get a "brain upgrade" . It changed his character, which I had originally really liked. What's wrong with being the muscle?

Besides, he became greedy with the upgrade, which caused him to help in the death of Fred . This change really ruined his character imo.

[Allan]

I'd disagree there. While Darla was considered a "villain", we never got a look at what makes her tick, aside from "She's a vampire, and ergo evil". Look at Faith, with her going from good to evil to good again, and we're with her every step of the way.

As for Gunn, the brain upgrade was due to the character feeling inconsequential about being simply "the muscle". While he didn't always make the right decision, he was wanting to be more that what he was. He wanted to be more effective, and thought that with the brain would come respect. I don't see how his character changed - he may have had a higher IQ, but his characteristics were still the same.

[Kana]

I think we did get an element about what makes Darla tick. She had a taste for religious wars when she was a vampire and constantly talked about her disdain for religion and piety. This is most likely because religion dispised her career choice, in any respect she talked about how God never did anything for her.

She seemed to be an independent woman who used sexuality to get what she wanted and not much had changed in her vamp days.

Liam was a impious catholic lad, that must have been great for her. Someone else who hated to hyprocrasy of religion.

It's interesting that someone who had a want for corruption would be redeemed in that respect. It sort of goes back to who she was in her human days. She was redeemed not through God but through love, something she had never experienced.

I think Gunn's abilities did change him. It's the classic product of being part of the corperate world. Gunn became the image he wanted to portray. Gunn admitted as much himself. This said, I agree with Allan in the repsect that Gunn was mostly the same in a lot of ways. He was an smart, smooth guy who can get you out of a tight spot. He changed but he was the sae in a lot of ways too.

I really respected him after he came out of the W&H holding dimension. He was more centred and not into making devil's bargains anymore. His attitude is great in NFA. He's seen things from both sides, from the poorest slums to the high city skyrise and he understands the importance of fighting the good fight even if forces like the Senior Partners are never destroyed.

Interesting side note: The Self Esteem song is wonderfully thematic in that ep Smile Time. Wes, Gunn and Angel all struggle with it.

[Laura]

batmite79 said:

As for Gunn, the brain upgrade was due to the character feeling inconsequential about being simply "the muscle". While he didn't always make the right decision, he was wanting to be more that what he was. He wanted to be more effective, and thought that with the brain would come respect. I don't see how his character changed - he may have had a higher IQ, but his characteristics were still the same.

His character acted different imo. He wasn't so street anymore- and that was what his character was all about before the brain upgrade. He started wearing a suit (which isn't a major change, but if you remember in "Waiting in the Wings" the old Gunn laughed at himself in a tux). Plus, he became a lawyer who worked to help demons. Before then, he was all about killing almost every demon (and not trusting them).