Angel's Curse

[Laura]

After seeing Willow grow into a very powerful witch, I started to wonder: could Willow ever take away the effects of Angel's curse? After all, she was able to return his soul many times, and he was cursed by a spell, so wouldn't there be a spell to undo it?

[Deleted]

I've never thought about it before, but my thoughts are that the Gypsies wanted him to suffer--which is why they cursed him in the first place. The only thing they didn't want him to have was a moment of true happiness. (In my opinion, it was silly of them to put that "perfect happiness" loophole in there--at least with the "consequence" it brought him.) It seems odd to me that they'd "let" some spell exist that could undo the curse at anytime. However, that doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. It's possible that a generic one could exist that would reverse the curse, but if that were the case I would think one of the many people who wanted Angel on their side would have tried to use it.

[Kana]

Maybe it's not an easy thing to do. In Season 2 Willow could only replicate the curse and was not powerful enough for a curse free re ensoulment, and in Season 4 of Angel maybe time was an issue.

[Laura]

That is a good point Haffner. Plus, if there was a easy spell to undo it, you think his enemies would just put the curse on again. That would be fun

You're also right, Kana. However, even if it wasn't easy, that doesn't mean Willow couldn't have tried it. Especially if she had had another witch help (maybe Amy, but that wouldn't happen since they became enemies).

[Kana]

I think it's been more circumstantial than anything else. Willow's always been quite busy either saving the world or destroying it .

[Glenn]

I think the fact that she took so long to de-rat Amy shows the more self involved nature Willow adopted. She clearly had the power to do it at the beginning of season 6 but only even thought about it once Tara had left.

[jeanvic]

The whole point of the curse was to make Angelus suffer, even though it didn't work and Angel had to suffer instead, and the perfect happiness loop hole had nothing to do with them.

The whole point was suffering and if that suffering ceased for but a moment, the soul and Angel would diappear and Angelus would reemerge. In that moment of perfect happiness the curse was no longer "working" so it was broken. The gypsies showed they had no control over that so I doubt Willow could either. Spell or not, if he doesn't feel that suffering for but a moment the curse is made redundant, therefore breaking it.

The only way I think Willow could stop the affects would be to prevent him from achieving perfect happiness, which I don't think is an issue. As it has been stated many times, the chances of achieving perfect happiness are like 0.01%. As shown in Season 4, Angel can only achieve it when everything in his life is perfect and after the crappy events of Season 5, I doubt perfection in his life is coming anytime soon.

[Laura]

Good point, jeanvic. However, how do we know the gypsies had no control over the curse? If someone can make a curse, one would think there would be a way to reverse the effects?

[jeanvic]

It is shown in Surprise that the gypsies have no control over the curse. They can feel its effects weakening and can try to prevent him achieving perfect hapiness but there is no mystical way for them to protect the curse. If there was they would have used it when the elder woman sensed the curse weakening.

[Kana]

I think Jean vic could be on to something. Maybe it's the metaphysical price they had to pay, kind of a nothing comes for free kind of deal. Perhaps that was the burden to watch over him and make sure he suffered.

[Laura]

Yes, yes, that's true. It would just make sense to me that there was some way to reverse it. However, maybe it wasn't even a spell, but a curse that has no way to undo it. Plus, I bet Joss wouldn't want to deal with all that.

[jeanvic]

But I personally think perfect happiness can only be achieved once anyway. Angel has achieved it twice but the second was under special circumstances. I'm sure in the future, losing his soul would be on his mind which would make Perfect happiness impossible.

[Laura]

Yes, that's a very good point. However, Angel continued to worry about losing his soul after Surprise. Was he just being careful?

[jeanvic]

I think perfect happiness was misconstrued as ejaculation but his intercourse with Darla and Nina proved that wrong. If he is worrying about it while having sex, he can't be perfectly happy can he? I think he was just being cautious about it because he is afraid of loosing Angelus on the world.

[Kana]

Well I agree the more it occurs, the less likely it is to happen in the future but it's always possible. He worried about it in Season 4 and it still happened, so you never know. I think it's less likely to happen because as you said Angel thinks about it a lot.

[jeanvic]

Yes Kana, my dear friend (what's happened to the PM's by the way? ) but if you look at Season 4 it wasn't natural perfect happiness. The shaman had to make everything in his life perfect first before it happened and like I said, after the almighty cock up that was Season 5, when will his life be perfect??

[Deleted]

jeanvic said:

But I personally think perfect happiness can only be achieved once anyway. Angel has achieved it twice but the second was under special circumstances. I'm sure in the future, losing his soul would be on his mind which would make Perfect happiness impossible.

Interesting discussion .

I think you've got the right ideas here and have been well thought out, but sometimes as much as we might want to, we simply can't control our emotions and what we feel. I agree that Angel will probably never lose his soul while having sex with someone he loves as much (or more than) Buffy, as the Angelus loophole will be on his mind to stop that, but other times it won't exactly be expected, he could achieve perfect happiness another way and it could just pounce on him unexpectedly .

[Laura]

That's true, Yosso. I always thought about that: could he get a moment of true happiness with Buffy, even if they weren't intimate like that? There are so many bad things in his life, I was surprised he could achieve perfect happiness at all.

[Allan]

I don't see "perfect happiness" ever factoring into it again. Angel's greatest fear is losing his soul, and it's something that will always be in the back of his mind. It happened once, and he'll never let it happen again.

Also, what's to say that the "perfect happiness clause" isn't inherently part of an "artificial" (ie newly restored) soul? What if Spike has that clause, and is unaware? Is his guilt simply preventing him from ever obtaining it?

As for Willow being able to allow Angel perfect happiness, theoretically it's possible. She is a powerful witch. That said, she doesn't know everything about magic, and I suspect that it would take relentless research of the curse to discover a way.

[jeanvic]

Loss of the soul or no, Willow will always be there to put it back and Buffy will always be there to stop Angelus if she has to. But like Hiro says, it is very unlikely it will factor in again. Look how many times he had sex with Nina, a woman he wanted to be with(damn Joss!!It should be Cordelia!!) without any adverse affects. Not even the birth of his son could send him over the edge so what really is there, aprt from a shaman helping things along, and only then his life needed to be perfect.

I do think that they have removed the perfect happiness clause anyway. Joss always wanted Angel to become human and now he can't do that I think he has given him another way to be happy, without humanity, and without losing his soul.