Why I don't Like Angel on BtVS

[Beck]

We were chatting in chatters and I thought I'd bring it here. Angel is a character I love - on his own show. I think most people know I am not a big fan of Angel on Buffy. So we want to know why? Ok then.

Angel holds little interest for me on Buffy. Here is this rich, fascinating character with the best back story on the entire show - and he's a bore! I can't for the life of me be interested in him. That changes when he moves to his spin-off thankfully. I used to like Angel, I did. But on repeat viewings... meh. Maybe its David's oh-so-bad acting or maybe its Buffy's effect on him But he's a bore for me, in most episodes. Not all. So. Here's my specific times I hated Angel list

Welcome the the Hellmouth/The Harvest
Following Buffy and being talk, dark and stalky. Get a clue you moron! Introduce yourself properly and don't be a goof. Also - "You can't stop the Harvest." Mr Negative much? You went to Sunnydale to help Buffy and you what... tell her she can't succeed? Good moral boost :rolleyes:

Prophecy Girl
He was willing to leave Buffy to die! He ONLY went after her because Xander did! The girl he LOVES is gone off to die - oh well!

Angel isn't in season 1 enough for me to have more from this season, I just don't like him in general, he's boring when he is onscreen :dunno: In season 2 he annoys me in general too, but I am just listing particular moments I hated him. Look I'm not even going to mention the gaggy moments, of which there are many :sick:

Lie to Me
His idiotic hiding Drusilla from Buffy. And his way of dealing with Ford. And the terrible acting. Ugh.

Whats my Line
Kissing Buffy in vamp face. He knows he can't control his inner demon as well in vamp face, and he kisses her with it?? Also, ick.

Then yay! Angelus! Lack of broody boringness! Yay!

Becoming
Flashbacks. Stalking the underage girl. Gross gross gross. Especially watching her in her house and at school. I can understand watching her slaying, but the rest has no relevance to her as the slayer and is stalky gross behaviour from an icky old man.

Homecoming
Wow Angel got better ish quick after 100 years in hell!

Amends
Where do I start? He went to GILES for help?! You insensitive, moronic asshole!! Who cares if YOU had no where else to go?! You killed his girlfriend and now want his help :rolleyes: Of course it was unsoulled Angelus but the lack of sensitivity because HE needs help is disgusting to me. Go to the bloody library yourself and look things up you moron.

Going to Buffy's house when the First was still in his ear. Gee what was he hoping to achieve there.

Trying to dust himself. Loser. Cause you know, leaving town just wouldn't be dramatic enough if he can't control himself around Buffy!

Helpless
Nice birthday present Angel. Do you know your girlfriend AT ALL? Also the 'I loved you when I saw you" is ick.

Enemies
It was necessary to kiss Faith, why? Humans disgust Angelus why would he kiss Faith :rolleyes:

The Prom
JOYCE had to tell you to leave?? Angel is 250 odd years old! Also, breaking up before Prom - not cool. Was pleased he showed up though, will give him that.

Graduation Day Part 1
Crowding Buffy and not leaving her alone with the carrying of the box and calling her a brat. She's 18 - you dumped her, give her some space moron

Graduation Day Part 2
YOU DRANK THE WOMAN YOU LOVED. Nuff said.

Pangs
Stalker.

The Yoko Factor
Punching up Buffy's boyfriend. Git. You're over 200 be the bigger man and walk away. Understand the defending against the Initiative, but pounding up Riley was daft.

Chosen
Go away you big poof and leave Buffy to her own life. You out of character pathetic excuse of a guest star. He can't offer her a good life, can't control his vamp around her as shown in Grad Day, so leave the girl alone and don't guilt her over her relationships

So. Erm. Add all the soppy gagginess to that and that is why I hate Angel on Buffy

[Laura]

Lol, wow, that was long .

You make really good points, though, Beck. How did I miss all these things

However:

I think in Welcome to the Hellmouth he said that because he didn't know what Buffy was capable of. I think him underestimating her was needed since afterward he was shocked, and probably had more faith in her.

I think in Enemies he kissed Faith only to really sell the acting. If he hadn't kissed Faith back, she might have started questioning or something .

And, in Pangs, he was only trying to protect Buffy. Plus, he didn't want Buffy to know because it would have been so hard on her. I don't know if I agree with his choice, though.

I also didn't like how he acted toward Buffy in Sanctuary, though.

[Beck]

bringonthenight said:

I think in Welcome to the Hellmouth he said that because he didn't know what Buffy was capable of. I think him underestimating her was needed since afterward he was shocked, and probably had more faith in her.

So what if he didn't know what she was capable of? He was in Sunnydale for the sole purpose of helping the Slayer, so he knocks her confidence and doesn't bother trying to actually help, all he does is tell her she can't do it? He didn't even tell her much about the Harvest, Giles had to research it. And if he knew about it, surely he'd know the Vessel just needed killing? Even if they couldn't succeed, if he was there to help her then he should have helped her instead of being Mr Negative stalky pain in the ass guy.

I think in Enemies he kissed Faith only to really sell the acting. If he hadn't kissed Faith back, she might have started questioning or something .

And when as Angelus have we ever seen him treat humans with anything but contempt? I see no reason he needed to kiss Faith, wasn't necessary to sell it. Humans are below Angelus - nothing more than animals, than food. If anything, that was out of character for Angelus to treat her as anything more than that.

And, in Pangs, he was only trying to protect Buffy. Plus, he didn't want Buffy to know because it would have been so hard on her. I don't know if I agree with his choice, though.

So a phone call warning her of the vision wouldn't be better? And making her friends have to lie to cover his visit? It was stalking. He either needed to be there to help, in which case he should not have hid from her (that was juvenile and again stalkerish) or he could have just warned them there was extra danger. Though gee - Buffy was in way more danger at other times yet he didn't have to come protect her

I also didn't like how he acted toward Buffy in Sanctuary, though.

Neither do I, though I didn't much like her behaviour there either. I also don't like his behaviour at the end of I Will Remember You but I was sticking to only Buffy episodes

[Laura]

Lol, yeah. All very good points. I see no reason to argue further, since you've proved Angel isn't worth arguing for here . He was great in his spin off, I guess he was not good at being a semi-side character.

I know you were sticking to Buffy episodes, but I just wanted to mention that .

[Lizzie]

Seriously, I agree Beck! From what I've seen about Angel, he is much more interesting. And funny! The scene where he is dancing at Cordy's party? Hilarious! What did he do in Buffy? Brood, oh yeah, and brood. Very boring.

[Allan]

I agree with Beck, too. He really wasn't the most interesting character in BtVS. The Angelus stuff added gravitas, which is where I think much of the "Angel love" came from. But as a character (complete with soul) he never came into his own until Ats.

[Kana]

Well I liked it in theory, that fact that the demon was underneath the surface and we're not entirely sure he's the hero. He was cryptic guy. This said, I think Boreanaz' protrayal wasn't great on BTVS, although the character was always good. I can't be bothered now but there are consistencies in the way Angel was written. For example the "I'm not sure if I can be a hero, I don't know what to do" thing, we've seen supported on later eps of Angel in flashbacks and Angel's creepy stalker thing is something he found hard to shift after his whole bite avoid lifestyle. The main thing for was David's acting. Where he was supposed to be brooding and tortured he sometimes came across as being a little dull, but I didn't find it that bad overall.

[Beck]

Thats the big problem in BtVS - its only in theory. I like the premise of Angels character too, thats why its such a disappointment character-wise until he got his own show. It was only then that this fabulously layered character actually became fabulously layered. I found his character on BtVS dull, apart from a few occasions. And that aside I hate him on there for the above mentioned reasons. And it pisses me off because by all rights he SHOULD be a great character!

[Allan]

I guess a lot of it comes down to the fact that he was a supporting character in a show about Buffy. His purpose there was for Buffy's perspective and development, rather than his own.

[Laura]

Yes, good point, Allan. Angel was never the complete star on Btvs, and I think his character- which I agree with Beck, should be very interesting- was not able to reach its full potential until he got his own show.

Having Angel in love with Buffy and there for her development (as Allan mentioned) made it boring and sometimes sappy. Although, he did an awful amount of brooding on Ats too.

[Shaun]

admin said:

Welcome the the Hellmouth/The Harvest
Following Buffy and being talk, dark and stalky. Get a clue you moron! Introduce yourself properly and don't be a goof. Also - "You can't stop the Harvest." Mr Negative much? You went to Sunnydale to help Buffy and you what... tell her she can't succeed? Good moral boost

He scared her into taking the Harvest seriously. She didn't want to continue as the slayer and dismissed it as not that important. He was also lacking in social skills.

Prophecy Girl
He was willing to leave Buffy to die! He ONLY went after her because Xander did! The girl he LOVES is gone off to die - oh well!

He didn't know Buffy had gone off to face the master.

Lie to Me
His idiotic hiding Drusilla from Buffy. And his way of dealing with Ford. And the terrible acting. Ugh.

What was wrong with the way he dealt with Ford? Or Drusilla?

Whats my Line
Kissing Buffy in vamp face. He knows he can't control his inner demon as well in vamp face, and he kisses her with it?? Also, ick.

Since when can't he control his inner demon in vamp face? He controlled it fine when making Conner laugh as a baby

Becoming
Flashbacks. Stalking the underage girl. Gross gross gross. Especially watching her in her house and at school. I can understand watching her slaying, but the rest has no relevance to her as the slayer and is stalky gross behaviour from an icky old man.

He was watching her called, he was not stalking her as an icky old man

Homecoming
Wow Angel got better ish quick after 100 years in hell!

Yeah so he's a strong character

Amends
Where do I start? He went to GILES for help?! You insensitive, moronic asshole!! Who cares if YOU had no where else to go?! You killed his girlfriend and now want his help Of course it was unsoulled Angelus but the lack of sensitivity because HE needs help is disgusting to me. Go to the bloody library yourself and look things up you moron.

Angelus' actions, not Angel's. Giles was willing to help.

Going to Buffy's house when the First was still in his ear. Gee what was he hoping to achieve there.

Trying to dust himself. Loser. Cause you know, leaving town just wouldn't be dramatic enough if he can't control himself around Buffy!

He had the First convincing him he was only good for evil. He wasn't exactly thinking clearly.

Helpless
Nice birthday present Angel. Do you know your girlfriend AT ALL? Also the 'I loved you when I saw you" is ick.

Yeah he's not the only guy not to be good at buying gifts

The Prom
JOYCE had to tell you to leave?? Angel is 250 odd years old! Also, breaking up before Prom - not cool. Was pleased he showed up though, will give him that.

Angel was aready contemplating leaving, Joyce's words gave him the slight push he needed. And I doubt the prom meant anything to Angel. And he did turn up in the end.

Graduation Day Part 1
Crowding Buffy and not leaving her alone with the carrying of the box and calling her a brat. She's 18 - you dumped her, give her some space moron

They were in the middle of a big fight. There was no time for space.

Graduation Day Part 2
YOU DRANK THE WOMAN YOU LOVED. Nuff said.

He was delirious and Buffy hit him and pushed him towards her. He wasn't in control of his actions.

Pangs
Stalker.

Saved her life.

The Yoko Factor
Punching up Buffy's boyfriend. Git. You're over 200 be the bigger man and walk away. Understand the defending against the Initiative, but pounding up Riley was daft.

[Beck]

I knew someone would have to argue with me I'm debating it already on another forum, but why not here too

shaun said:

He scared her into taking the Harvest seriously. She didn't want to continue as the slayer and dismissed it as not that important. He was also lacking in social skills.

He followed her, didn't bother to announce his presence, she sensed him there. He could have introduced himself, or offered more information. He was in Sunnydale to HELP Buffy not to tell her she would never win. What was the point in turning up to taunt her in the masoleum?

He didn't know Buffy had gone off to face the master.

And when Xander told him, he didn't want to go help. He went because XANDER was going.

What was wrong with the way he dealt with Ford? Or Drusilla?

He should have told Buffy about Drusilla being in town with Spike, she's the slayer and should have been told Dru was still alive and in town. As for Ford, he went behind Buffy's back to her friends (ooooh this is familiar) and they had to lie to her for him.

Since when can't he control his inner demon in vamp face? He controlled it fine when making Conner laugh as a baby

Don't poke me His vampire side is stronger in vamp face. He turned to vamp face when kissing Buffy in their first kiss, we've seen that vamps associate feeding as erotic at times, kissing her in vamp face with those emotions could have been dangerous imo.

He was watching her called, he was not stalking her as an icky old man

I have no problem with him watching her slay, I have a problem with him watching her in her OWN HOUSE in the privacy of her bathroom! And watching her at school.

Angelus' actions, not Angel's. Giles was willing to help.

Still insensitive. Giles was willing to help because he's a better man. Right or not, Angel feels such guilt over his actions towards so many people, yet he goes to Giles for help?!

He had the First convincing him he was only good for evil. He wasn't exactly thinking clearly.

Yep so instead of fighting it he gives up and tries to kill himself.

Angel was aready contemplating leaving, Joyce's words gave him the slight push he needed. And I doubt the prom meant anything to Angel. And he did turn up in the end.

I gave him kudos for turning up in the end. He shouldn't have needed a push, Angel knew it was wrong from the beginning, even before the loss of his soul. After his soul loss it was irresponsible and stupid getting involved again at all.

They were in the middle of a big fight. There was no time for space.

Yes and hanging around distracting her making her feel worse is NOT helping her is it?

He was delirious and Buffy hit him and pushed him towards her. He wasn't in control of his actions.

I disagree and find it horrible.

Saved her life.

He stalked her! And went behind her back, again, and got her friends to cover for him.

No comment on the Chosen scene?

[Lexie]

Angel was NOT in his right mind when he drank from Buffy. He was sick from the poison. Buffy hit him three times then pulled him to her neck

[Beck]

Yes and I know this. It still adds to the reasons I already dislike Angel for. I still find it disgusting, and stupid of Buffy too. She was needed to stop the Mayor and almost gets herself killed

[Allan]

I agree. Granted Angel wasn't in his right mind, and Buffy should have recognised it.

[Loz]

I don't find it horrible or disgusting in the slightest There is a reason it was voted the number 2 moment in all television that entire year at the Emmy's.

And I would do whatever i could to save the person that i love simple as that. Stuff anyone else or anything else that is going on at that moment. That may sound selfish but thats the way i see it. And obviously the way Buffy saw it as well.

[Glenn]

They did the same thing when they gave the box of Gavrok back to the Mayor to save Willow. It didnt matter to Buffy or her friends that without the box, the ascension couldnt happen. Thats just the way Buffy is, she would risk it all to save her friends and loved ones. Good thing or bad thing, thats just Buffy.

[Kana]

I agree with Glenn. Buffy is like that. Buffy has a saving friends and lovers policy. In WML she seemed more motivated to stop Spike when Angel was kidnapped. I don't think Angel should be blamed.

As an overall statement about Angel, like people have said he didn't start off as the vampire with big brass testicles we see in NFA (the vampire I mean, not his testicles), it was a journey and I personally like that journey. When he met Buffy he wasn't a human guy, he was a fringedwelling soulled vampire still uncertain of his path. Like Wes, Angel made great strides in his development.

As for Chosen, well, he went with good intentions. He also gave over the amulet that saved the day and saved Buffy's life in that episode. I'm not condoning the jealous vampire crap. What's interesting is that although Angel makes it clear how he feels about her, Buffy doesn't discourage it gives him a little hope...

This said Angel's done a lot of good on btvs too. Angel has given info that's hard to come across, saved Buffy a few times or at least tried. Not just that he's saved Buffy's friends lives as well. And in the bizarro world, he alone tried to save people from the Master and tried to help Buffy again to defeat the Master even though he was most likely weak from torture. He even saved Xander from Faith and then tried to help Faith. Also he came up the key to the plan to defeat the Mayor. All characters have moral ambiguity but Angel's done some good on btvs too.