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Post by Beck on Sept 11, 2006 11:52:26 GMT 10
Someone wrote on BT that they hated Holtz cause he's too evil. My response was this:
"Actually Holtz wasn't evil at all. Remember that Angelus not only was an extremely vicious and evil vampire back in Holtz's time, he slaughtered Holtz's family and turned his precious daughter into a vampire, forcing Holtz to dust her. It would be an extremely hard concept for Holtz to grasp that Angelus was no longer evil - and considering all the evil Angelus had done not only to him and his family, he was entitled to want justice and not forgive Angel.
Holtz was very wrong with what he did to Conner though, not only turning him against his father, but taking him to a hell dimension and making him grow up there. But remember in the end Holtz did love Conner. And he hated Angel for the crimes he commited as Angelus. A lot of time may have passed for Angel since he murdered Holtz's family, but for Holtz it was a matter of weeks."
What does everyone else think? Was Holtz really the bad guy?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2006 13:22:29 GMT 10
Wow. Good question. I have no idea if I'll even be able to answer it coherently (and please keep in mind that I haven't seen the Holtz eps for a while, so my details may be off a bit, in which case just politely let me know). But, here are my thoughts.
Holtz was definitely wrong in what he did to Connor. However, it didn't come out of nowhere. As you said, Angelus had done a lot of harm to him and his family. I can understand why he would want revenge and also that it would be difficult for him to see the difference between Angel and Angelus.
Here's where the details get blurry. I can't remember if Holtz intended to go after Connor to get back at Angel or if his goal had been Angel himself but due to Wesley taking Connor his plans changed.
1) If his original intention had been to turn Connor against Angel, it was a smart move. He was going after one of the very few things we saw Angel really love in this world.
2) If Connor wasn't in his original plans, it was a smart move to adjust and use what he was given. Again, because of the reasons above.
However, I can't agree with what he did to Connor, even if he felt he had a good reason to do it. To corrupt someone's life like that for the sole purpose of getting revenge on an enemy just seems very wrong to me, even if that person were part of the enemy's life and therefore an "in." Similarly, to use and abuse that person because of the fact that he's a part of your enemy's life is very...wrong, for lack of a more useful word. If he and his gang had sought justice personally and not gotten anyone else involved in the matter it would have likely seemed more just to the audience.
Was he a bad guy? Yes, he was, because of what he did to Connor. Had he left it between himself and Angel he would have simply been a tortured soul looking to avenge the deaths of his families.
Not so sure that made any sense, but that's my current take on it.
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Post by Beck on Sept 11, 2006 15:49:13 GMT 10
Holtz's original plan was to kill Angelus, and probably use torture. That changed when he found out Angel had a soul and he saw Darla was pregnant and that Angel now had a son. He realised there was something Angel now cared about as much as Holtz had loved his family. He could not accept that Angelus was not the same vampire, though he acknowlegded he now had the soul. He then altered his plan to take away from Angel what Angel had taken from him. The love of his family. Holtz wasnt capable of actually killing another human (its my belief this is why it was Justine who went after Wesley and not Holtz himself), especially an innocent child - so he saw Conner as being the child that should be his and not Angel's. Hence the plot to kidnap him and not kill him.
I think the plan was never to bring Conner back to LA and have him confront Angel - I think that was a new plan that Holtz formed in Quortoth perhaps because he could no longer survive in Quortoth because of his age. Turning Conner against Angel could have been on purpose or just something Holtz could not help because of his intense hatred for him. It was once Conner met Angel and started to think he might not be such a bad guy after all that Holtz plotted to set Angel up for killing him. And I think this was a last ditch effort to protect Conner from Angel and make sure Angel was never happy with his family, as Holtz had never been.
So to me, it was all about revenge. Holtz was misguided in his actions, but he could not be expected to ever forgive Angel for Angelus's past deeds. He was right to hate Angel. But he wasn't right to ruin an innocent child's life, though I don't think that was ever his intention.
Lets also not forget that back in his day Holtz was a vampire hunter. He was definately a good guy. He protected others from vampires. It was Angelus that turned Holtz into a bitter man hell bent on revenge. And from his perspective - Angel was still a vampire. And a vampire who had once been extremely vicious. He had not originally meant to take Conner to Quortoth, he had planned to give him a normal upbringing, but that changed when he was forced to go through th portal to Quortoth.
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Post by Kana on Sept 11, 2006 17:04:54 GMT 10
I'd have to agree that Holtz is a villain. A good man who became corrupted. I know Holtz' plan changed when he found out about Conner but it was because he would prefer to hurt Angel not kill Angelus.
Remember he had the opportunity to kill Angelus but he was frustrated because he could hurt Angelus the way Angelus hurt him.
When he found out Angel had a soul he saw this a fitting, so that he could suffer the way Holtz did.
Let's be clear, Holtz didn't care about justice, it was about vengeance. He abused and manipulated an innocent child to the point that Conner even lamented that he wished he Angel hadn't let Holtz take him. Holtz was willing to kill 'enemy soilders' even though he knew they weren't evil. He even proved to Justine that he understands the shades of grey but he didn't care, he justed wanted his revenge regardless of the consequence. Remember he was even willing to kill Conner at one point!!!!! Actions of a good man? And do you think Holtz would have cared if his own people were killed in service of his vengeance? I don't believe so, which is why Holtz was so dangerous.
I know what Spike did to Wood wasn't as bad as what Angelus did to Holtz but while we wont go into the Wood/Holtz Spike/Angelus dichotomy now, I think that another factor is that Wood had a life outside his vengeance which is why I believe he was able to move past and help to save lives.
Holtz whole life was about killing vampires. Maybe he actually felt guilty for helping to save others while not keeping his own family safe. This is speculation but Holtz changed from a good man trying to save lives to man willing to sacrifice lives for his own end.
So I agree that Holtz WAS a righteous man but I believe he became corrupted.
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Post by buffymanic on Sept 11, 2006 18:45:46 GMT 10
He was a grieving father that was forced to kill his only daughter, thats enought to send anybody over the edge. Angel acted similary after Connor was taken he was willing to risk the lives of everybody in order to get him back and this including toruturing Linwood who was still human even if he did work for W&H!
I think Holtz honestly just wanted to regain what he had lost which were his children, and at that point Connor represented the son he wanted/needed more than killing Angel, plus it would have felt like he punishing Angel the same way Holtz had been punished. Going to Quartoth was a split second desision to try and preserve his life and the life he wanted with Conner; ad I honestly belive that he had no intention of killing him even though he threatened it.
Holtz was very wrong to turn Connor against Angel but its likely that he couldn't help himself. People do it all the time when parents divorce, its not right but it happens and Holtz is only human.
Holtz wasn't evil he was just a man destroyed by life events unable to function in a clear manner, unable to regain what he had lost
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Post by Kana on Sept 11, 2006 19:06:21 GMT 10
I don't believe Holtz was evil, I just think he fits the Buffyverse criteria of a villain in that he was wiling to hurt and endanger innocent lives for his own end. I admit Angel was close to the edge but he for moment accepted his loss of Conner and moved on to try to help people.
I understand Holtz actions but like Marcie or Faith he was the villain in the piece because he wasn't trying to make things better, he was trying to deal with his loss in a selfish way disregarding the lives of others.
Somewhat taken out of context but I think of Buffy's words.
"Every mal-adjust has his reasons"
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Post by Paul on Sept 11, 2006 19:33:45 GMT 10
i totally agree with tash holtz was no villian, he may of been a bit selfish in his quest for revenge but what parent wouldnt, in holtz's eyes angelus had commited a huge number of "crimes" and he deserved to be punished, just because angel has a soul and regretts what happened does not warrant forgiveness, thats like letting every killer out of prison just because they have apologised, not gonna happen.
and as for kidnapping conner, holtz proberly did angel a favour, if connor had stayed in l.a. he would have been in so much danger, every villian would try to use him against angel, im not saying it wasnt dangerouse in quortoth but i think it was for the best
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Post by Kana on Sept 11, 2006 20:16:01 GMT 10
An interesting side note is this: Holtz believed or stated that he believed he was executing justice but in the last few episodes he admitted that he was after vengeance. He also said that to Justine that he was asking her to send her to hell. Does this mean that Holtz himself believed he has been corrupted?
I think somewhere along the line Holtz didn't believe he was doing the right thing but carried on vengeance was all he had but then he had a son who believe deeply he loved. Unfortanately that love wasn't enough to build something, only destroy.
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Post by buffymanic on Sept 11, 2006 20:17:46 GMT 10
Have to disagree there Paul. Connor would have been better off with his father no matter how much danger he was in Angel would be able to protect him. Connor would have grown up much more emotionally stable, would have learnt how to fight just as well, but more importantly he would have been brought up as a champion.
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Post by Shaun on Sept 11, 2006 22:45:44 GMT 10
Holtz was justified in his actions up until he found out Angel had a soul. After that it was never about justice, he understood the difference a soul makes, he didn't care. He still wanted revenge for what Angel did to his family. He may have ended up loving Conner, but he used him to get to Angel and a child should never be used for that. As for protecting Conner, he was never doing that. Angel may have had many enemies, but he knew how to live in LA and was much stronger and capable of protecting Conner than Holtz could ever be. I agree with Kana, Holtz in the end knew what he had done was wrong, but he continued with it anyway. He had gone from a good man to one blinded by his hatred and no longer cared about right and wrong.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 12, 2006 7:37:58 GMT 10
I am going to have to agree with Kana and Shaun. As soon as Holtz found out that he had a soul and was cursed to feel the weight of all his victims deaths that should have been it. If he wanted true vengeance then it shouldnt matter who gave it to Angelus, just the fact that it happened may have quenched his thirst. Even then if he had simply wanted to keep his vengeance aimed at Angel maybe even then he would still not be a villain. But involving an innocent child and corrupting his heart is beyond vengeance towards Angel. It was destroying another life, someone who had no dealings with Angelus' crimes.
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Post by Beck on Sept 12, 2006 17:18:09 GMT 10
See I dont' think that Holtz did ever accept that Angel was not the same vampire as Angelus was. He knew about the soul, but he hated him so much and needed to have his 'justice' (which is how he saw it imo) against Angelus. And soul or not, it was still this vampire that killed his family. Yes it ended up being vengeance and at the very end of season 3 at his death, he definately did the wrong thing to Conner, but I do not believe he ever meant to destroy Conner's life. I think he thought he would be saving Conner from Angel by kidnapping him. Remember it wasnt his plan to take Conner to Quortoth! That was his quick decision made to keep Conner from Angel.
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Post by buffymanic on Sept 12, 2006 18:58:32 GMT 10
I saw taking Connor as a way to replace his own son and knew how much it would destroy Angel. But I also think that even though he know about his soul he couldn't differenciate between Angel and Angelus. He would always be Angelus and in that respect he could justify taking Conner because he probably belived him to be safer
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Post by Paul on Sept 12, 2006 19:02:28 GMT 10
I saw taking Connor as a way to replace his own son and knew how much it would destroy Angel. But I also think that even though he know about his soul he couldn't differenciate between Angel and Angelus. He would always be Angelus and in that respect he could justify taking Conner because he probably belived him to be safer yeah and wes thought it would be safer too,especially because if angels erratic behavior and the prophecy, there was no way of knowing the prophecy had been altered |
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Post by Kana on Sept 12, 2006 20:10:57 GMT 10
I'd say that Holtz did see the difference which was the crux of his whole revenge.
Remember in the flashback of Offspring where Holtz was frustrated that Angelus couldn't suffer the way Angelus made him suffer. When Angel had a soul he exacted a revenge that would hurt Angel. He was wanted to take Conner away to make Angel (with soul) suffer. Angelus wouldn't have cared.
He tricked Wes who he believed was honest and would help Justine, which he did. He was willing to have an innocent man killed just so he could get his revenge.
Do you really think Holtz wanted to save Conner? In sleep tight he was willing to kill Conner to get at Angel!!!!
Back to my point. It's not that Holtz can't tell the difference between Angel and Angelus. He knew that he was a being with the capacity to care. He was actually up on the gypsy curse so he knew as much as anyone who knew Angel did.
Holtz wanted revenge. He didn't believe what he was doing was right or at least he lost sight of it. He was willing to kill humans on Angel's side and sacrifice humans on his own side. Not for the greater good but to get his own revenge.
Holtz actually accepts the shades of grey. He did a deal with a demon who he must have understood could indeed have interests that lie outside of justice. Things aren't always black and white huh Holtz? Accept when it comes to a certain vampire. Also he didn't kill the demons who were working for him because they were demons, he killed them because he needed pained humans to manipulate for his quest of vengeance.
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Post by buffymanic on Sept 13, 2006 3:37:18 GMT 10
Do you really think Holtz wanted to save Conner? In sleep tight he was willing to kill Conner to get at Angel!!!! Again I don't think for a second that Holtz was going to kill Connor, it was just a threat to keep Angel away and if he did actually want to kill him then why didn't he just leave him alone in Quartoth |
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Post by Glenn on Sept 13, 2006 4:03:32 GMT 10
Im not sure whether Holtz would have killed the child. Perhaps he could have let himself do it if he maintained his thoughts on how Angelus killed his children. But whether or not he had slipped that far down the scales im not sure. He WAS willing to let innocent people die in order for his revenge to take place. That means he was no longer a moral man, and once you lose your morals i dont think that anything is out of your reach.
So i dont think Holtz wanted to kill him otherwise yes he would have let him die in Quortoth but whether or not he was willing to kill him is a little more up in the air.
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Post by Allan on Feb 23, 2007 23:15:52 GMT 10
Great thread, Beck.  Holtz is, in my mind, a villain. He really is. That said, you can really feel for him, and understand where he's coming from. But when it's all said and done, he let his drive for vengeance consume him, and push him over the edge. |
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Post by Beck on May 28, 2007 9:05:39 GMT 10
Moved this from another thread because it belongs here.
By Kana
Any more opinions?
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Post by Nico on Jun 4, 2010 11:46:14 GMT 10
No one could expect Holtz to understand that Angel had a soul and was trying to make remorse for his crimes and after the horrendous things he did to Holtz family it is not surprising Holtz wanted revenge.
He threatened to kill Connor and in my eyes that says he was capable of it and at that point he was forced into a corner. He was a man who lost everything and was forced to kill his daughter, he had nothing left to live for except revenge. Although he grew to love Connor he kept hold of all that hurt and pain even in his dying moments he wanted to go thinking Connor would hate or possibly kill Angel. (Faking the vampire Bite) .
He became more corrupted as he chased Angel willing to sacrifice others to get his revenge, that made him a villain.
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