Connor

[buffymanic]

Do you think he was ever saveable?

Imagine that Angel had gotten through to him before the end of season 3 and maybe Holtz didn't die, do you think it would ever be possible in such a situation for Angel to reconnect to his son and prevent him from the major melt down?

[Laura]

I think he would have been saveable, if everything had gone right. Angel was almost getting through to him after Connor pushed aside his hate toward him. If Holtz had never framed Angel, then Connor would not have began his trip over the edge. If he had a steady father figure, even if it was Angel, I believe he could have been saved.

[buffymanic]

I have doubts over whether Angel could have 'saved' him because Holtz was always going to come into the picture at some point and it would be very easy for him to break down any bond Angel had with Connor because it's hard for Connor to see Holtz as anything other than his father

[Allan]

I always held hope that Angel could save Connor, and I think that he may have been able to do so, if Holtz hadn't framed him for his murder. That was the final nail in the coffin as far as Connor was concerned.

[Laura]

True, Trash, Holtz would have gotten in the way. However, if Angel could have stayed a father figure for Connor and perhaps move the thoughts of Holtz as a father out of his head, maybe Connor finally would have done away with his beliefs that Holtz was his father.

[Kana]

A character is both the product of nature (genes or whatever) and their environment. Holtz' involvment was inextricably linked and perhaps that was all part of Jasmine's intervention so it's difficult to imagine the could have been. I understood and identified with Conner when he felt he couldn't and shouldn't and shouldn't be happy. With growing up in a hell dimension and being fed conflicting advice by a most likely abusive father, Conner had the deal with pain as a constant in his life.

Holtz raised him so that if he embraced Angel it would gone against everything he was taught to believe and when someone has grown up with that it's difficult to 'deprograme' them.

[Allan]

With everything that's been said as to whether Connor is saveable, do you guys think that he is at all responsible for his actions? Granted, he was corrupted by Holtz, but how far does that excuse work for him?

[Deleted]

I've always seen Connor as a product of Holtz's anger, resentment, thirst for revenge, but I've also always held Connor accountable for his own actions. He had the chance to get Angel's side of the story and then decide. And he could have still sided with Holtz and the storyline would have continued on much as it did, but I would have had more respect for him. Instead, he decides not to give Angel the smallest chance and assumes that not only Angel, but everyone who interacts with him, is corrupted.

[Amber]

I agree that his environment (including the people around him) influenced him in many things, but like Marie, I hold him responsible for his own actions. He did have a choice, after all.

[Bre]

Sure he had a choice, but it's not like he had a lot of good info on Angel. All he was taught is that Angel was evil and needed to be killed ... all his life. I can't imagine being in his position. I think all of his actions were understandable. Not exactly right choices, but understandable.

[Allan]

He had a choice, but he was raised to believe what Holtz said. He was raised to believe that Holtz was simply right. It's not like he was raised and taught by Holtz with external influences that would alter his perception - he didn't have that.

[buffymanic]

He has to be accountable for atleast some of his actions, say from season 4 onwards perhaps because he has had other influences and has the opportunity to grow away from Holtz's influence.

Everything after season 4 was his own doing and really he should have allowed people to help him more

[Shaun]

He is accountable for his actions, but some of them are understandable because of the way he was raised. Conner had been taught not to trust anyone and to hate Angel, it would have been very hard for him to accept help from them.