Friends?

[Lexie]

Does anyone else have issues with Angel and Buffy's friends? They look at them to be the leader of the team, to save everyone and after one mistake, one slip up they abandon and abuse them. Is that real friendship? Yes, people's feelings were hurt, but they always seem to me to be pretty unforgiving and unwilling to try and look at it from any perspective except their own. That is until they need to be saved again.

How about when Buffy ran away after the Season 2 finale? Nobody once tried to understand what she could possibly be feeling and when she came back they all ganged up on her and told her how wrong she was to leave. Then they were all buddy buddy again after she saved their lives.

How about after Angel's dark spell in Season 2 of Angel? He came crawling back to them and instead of trying to figure out where it had all gone wrong they alienated him to the point of closing the doors in his face and sending him for coffee.

Then there is Season 7 of Buffy when they throw her out of her house because they lost the one battle. Yes, lives were lost, but there was a bigger battle coming. And again they abandon her to the point of throwing her out of her own house.

I'm not saying that things should have been automatically perfect after each of the times I mentioned, but I think the way their friends treated them was simply horrible. What do you guys think about it?

[Kana]

I think respect is a two way street regardless if you've saved other people's lives. Angel needs and depends on his friends as well as they need and depend on him. They are his connection to humanity so I think they deserve respect. Let us not forget that Angel treated Wes like crap in Disharmony; he didn't have any regard to how he was feeling seemed to want to feel better about himself, whilst alienating Wes and let us not forget that Buffy wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for her friends.

Ok looking at Season 2/3 of Buffy, I see it from everyone's perspective, Joyce's especially. She just found out about Buffy being the Slayer then she left, if her emotions were not running high, that would be more worrying. Xander was admittedly being hypocritical but he's a very emotional character and does tend to put Buffy on a pedestal. Buffy could have opened up to at least Willow but remember she didn't open up to anyone at first with what happened with Angel, not to mention Buffy isn't the only one in the world who hurts. Buffy may have lost Angel but for all they knew they lost their friend, aren't they allowed to react? This said, they didn't have to be so hard on her. But, you know what? No one was totally right or totally wrong. It wasn't a logical debate, it was an emotional rant, everyone was hurt, angry, worried and upset.

About Angel? As I said above, I don't believe Angel had the moral high ground. Angel chose to leave his friends, it's their choice to take him back, Why should they hear him out, he didn't reason with them, he fired them. If anyone should be the first to attempt an explanation it should be Angel but maybe it wasn't deemed necessary, the point was Angel was sorry for his actions and wanted to be part of the group again. Wes and Cordy are angry at him and understandably so. They made him squirm for what? A day? But in that time Angel still managed to lie (about Darla), pay all his attention to Cordy just because she said they are not friends and never once asked how Wes was feelings after being fired or shot.

I think Season 7 is the biggest moot point. I personally feel it was the mainly the manipulation of the First Evil. i read a theory that FE attacked Buffy in the ahrshest way possible, by having her friends lose confidence in her instincts. Her instincts led to loss of lives so it's not a huge shock that people would doubt her judgement now. It could be looked upon as giving Buffy a leave of absence due to stress rather than betrayel. It was after all Dawn of all people who actually asked her to leave if I remember correctly and she seemed to be doing it out of fear, fear of even more casualties. Buffy wasn't thrown out as I see it. She was asked to leave and although visibly hurt, she accepted and voluntarily stepped aside.

All, in all, it's never simple. I don't see Angel and Buffy as the victims entirely and in all the situations, the friends feelings were either understandable or justified. In the Verse, it isn't always easy to tell who is right and who is wrong. Emotions do create a grey area in such matters.

[Lexie]

I'm not saying their feelings aren't justified. They are. They have valid reasons to be upset. I'm not saying that Buffy and Angel were completely in the right in their actions, either. They made a mistake. They're not perfect. I just think that they (their friends I mean) seem to take things a step too far.

I know that if something major ever happens between me and my friends none of us treat each other like complete dirt.

[Beck]

I think Joyce behaved as you would expect with her reaction to Buffy's leaving and returning. For all she knew Buffy was dead, not to mention the guilt she would be feeling since they had a fight the last she saw of her. She shifts the blame onto Giles, but imo she didn't fully believe it wasnt at least partially her own fault. Xander and Willow were understandably upset with her, but refusing to talk about it and then organising a huge party at Buffy's house instead of the small dinner she wanted was very wrong imo. It was very clearly NOT something Buffy would need. Regardless of them finding her leaving selfish, they should have understood Buffy was in a very fragile state of mind. So the anger was justified, their behaviour was not.

Angel's friends in season 2... I don't think they were too harsh. They tried helping Angel and got slapped in the face. Also as Kana said, he really only focussed his apologies on Cordy - to me thats because he knew Cordy. In this case I don't think they took their reaction too far, Angel left them for quite some time and couldn't expect to be forgiven the second he changes his mind. And its not like they took a long time to forgive him.

Kicking Buffy out of her house was inexcusable imo. She was being bossy and unreasonable yes. But they had relied on her judgement many many times before and she had never led them wrong - only that once. NO they shouldn't necessarily have listened to her, but kicking her out of HER OWN HOUSE after she had protected them and let them live there was disgustingly rude, disrespectful and mean. Xander was the only one who tried to see it from Buffy's POV and even he didn't stick up for her in the end. As Spike so fantasically put it, those sad, sad ungrateful traitors.

[Nico]

kana said:

Buffy wasn't thrown out as I see it. She was asked to leave and although visibly hurt, she accepted and voluntarily stepped aside.
.

Im not sure I agree with that, She had no choice to stay, They may have not said "get out" but they definetly were not saying "dont Go" it wasnt Buffys choice, No one is perfect, and with all the potentials and buffys friends thinking they have it tough? what about Buffy?, Giles made sure she knew everything was up to her, If anyone died, there blood was on Her Hands.

Granted, Buffy messed up, but the way to deal with that isnt to get rid of her, Spike was the only one who realised what she needed, She had lost Faith in herself a long time before they lost faith in her, they never noticed,They Didnt care, Spike did, and if it wasnt for Spike, they would all be dead, in more ways than one.

Buffy running away was daft, Willow was tough on her, Xander I think was suffering the most, but Like Lexie said, If that was my friend I would have treated her with more respect, before laying into her about her actions

[Kana]

Maybe the best way was to get rid of her for the time being, but agreed she didn't offer the idea of relieving herself. In terms of pure logic (not Spikelike loyalty) one needs leadership, that was one thing Buffy was most resolved in even when she was doubting herself (Touched). I agree with that 100%. I don't see it as everyone was treating Buffy unfairly. I suspect (ok not my theory) it was a clever plan on the First's part. Buffy has always trusted her instincts and normally they are right but this time round, she didn't just mess up in an 'oops' kind of way, people died and Xander got terribly hurt as a result of her decision making. Now Rona was the most insensitive but as for the other potentials who don't know Buffy, their feelings are understandable.

Like I said, I didn't think Buffy offered up the idea but she understood she wasn't at her best and we see this in Touched. I don't think Buffy is the really hurting so much over their words, she was still able to think clearly enough to tell Faith to lead them, I think she was losing faith in herself (as you said) so when you think about it, maybe she needed that time to regroup. A self doubting leader is no good to anyone. That is why I think she didn't put up too much of a fight when Dawn asked her to leave. She believed in the plan, but she didn't believe in herself.

[sosalola]

Regarding Empty Places, I think all of them were in the wrong, here are my thoughts on why each character acted the way s/he did.

Buffy:

After all these disappointments, Buffy needs to win, she needs everybody to trust her ability to win. Just like in Showtime when she had asked Xander and Willow to find a place for her to kill the Ubervamp with the potentials watching her win. Not to mention, she has this neat idea about the high school not being guarded. You know the feeling you get when you're so sure about something and you want your buds to trust your judgment but they just don't. It can be frustrating.

Xander:

Xander had to get hurt badly after he had backed up Buffy in her 'reckless' plan in Dirty Girls. The fact that Xander was so loyal to Buffy and that his pay for this loyalty was getting maimed, followed by Buffy showing no sympathy (at least in front of Xander) and then later Giles mentions that Buffy doesn't trust them anymore, all that made Xander break. As the writers said, Xander is the character that keeps the house together, when Xander got hurt, the house fell down and Buffy got kicked out.

Willow:

She just gave her opinion. She didn't like Buffy's plan. As for her out-of-characterness when she let Buffy leave the house, Willow was obviously crushed by Xander's injury. She showed disappointment in Buffy when she didn't stay by Xander's side a bit longer in the hospital. Willow noticed the change in Buffy's character. Willow is the most supportive friend of Buffy. She supports Buffy even when she doesn't like her decisions. Now this time she doesn't support Buffy, and I have to say that I'm proud of Willow because she said what she really felt instead of agreeing with Buffy like she usually did. Willow, being the sweet girl she was, told Buffy so gently that she didn't approve of her plan. I was shocked it was Faith who followed Buffy outside and not Willow. But then Willow, like Xander and Giles, is a minor character at this point.

Giles:

Also like Willow, gave his opinion that, no, he didn't like Buffy's plan. He's also annoyed that Buffy still accused him of disloyalty because of one mistake he was doing for the greater good.

Dawn:

Dawn was mostly hurt for what happened to Xander. Buffy didn't show any concern over what happened to Xander. We, the audience, know that she cared because of the touching picture scene, but the Scoobies didn't see that. We've seen Dawn asking Buffy if Xander was okay but Buffy kept ignoring her. Then we see Buffy once again ordering the potentials to go at it again with no proof if Buffy was right or wrong. Buffy doesn't take others' suggestions, and she was taking the weight of the world on her shoulders alone. She needed to rest, she needed the others to help her, she shouldn't do it alone. Dawn had tears in her eyes afterwards and snapped at Rona to shut up when she made fun of Buffy. Dawn cares about Buffy, but Buffy needed to rest, she needed to work with them together as a team not leader.

Anya:

Anya seems to be resentful towards Buffy ever since Selfless. It's understandable. As for her comment about Buffy's luckiness, I agree that just because she's the slayer, that doesn't make Buffy better than them, but there was no way Buffy was lucky to be a slayer.

Faith:

Of all of them, Faith was the only one who tried to leave resentment out of the discussion. She kept her emotions under control, and had more reason trying to get Buffy to understand that her plan was crazy. But sadly Buffy won't listen to Faith. Faith wanted everybody to calm down. I think the fact that Faith didn't live through the entire crazy atmosphere of season 7, didn't listen to Buffy's speeches, didn't sleep on the thought that she'll be killed any minute had kept her level headed. She was the only one who tried to keep the house from blowing, but since she's no Xander, poor thing couldn't handle the situation alone.


Here's what Drew Greenberg said about this scene:

"The point of that scene was to go back to one of the things that I loved most about college, which is when you take an argument and present both sides of it, and you do your very best to make sure that neither side is right [or] wrong. It's about two very valid points of view. We did our very best in that scene to make sure both points of view were valid. That meant that when Willow chimes in, she doesn't want to hurt Buffy, but she has to stand up and say, 'We have a point of view that you need to listen to,' and Willow was a part of that chorus that came from the rest of the group. I never thought of the final scene as about anybody's loyalty switching from Buffy. I think they were as much trying to protect Buffy as themselves. I think they saw that she was rushing into something that she shouldn't be rushing into."