Spike, Angel, Heroes.

[Kana]

I have to strongly disagree here. Angel does care if he looses his soul. In Amends he says that part of him doesn't care, not all of him. And with Darla I don't think it was about trying to loose his soul. He was at rock bottom and he just wanted to feel something. Besides, do you actually believe that during the time Angel went back to Darla with his soul they didn't have sex? Logically he knows that he can't loose his soul to Darla and even is he thought he could that wasn't the reason he slept with her in Reprise.

I think Angel's problem is that he slides between idealism and nihilism with varying results. Meaning is very important to Angel. when he comes back from hell he needs to know why and even reads Satre as he contemplates the meaningless of existence. One of Angel's more positive moments was when he wouldn't accept Fred's death. When Spike suggests that Fred might be dead and gone and that's it but Angel refuses to accept that and even when it seems that Fred is gone Angel places meaning in that (see PP).

Now, about Angel and Spike...I have to agree with Glenn and Paulo, saving people and fighting the good fight isn't a competition. I don't view either of them as being a better hero than the other. Different, definitly, but not better

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Yep agree.

It's true that Angel has never had a huge apocolapse to stop, but that doesn't mean he would back out if there was one. Remember, he was willing to wear the amulet in Chosen, but Buffy asked him to leave and he respected her decision.

Absolutely. It's more circumstancial than anything else.

I will say that I think Spike wouldn't be great at the saving souls deal, though. That doesn't make him a bad hero, it's just not in his personality to reach out to troubled souls the way Angel does.

Spike does tend to connect with others in a different way. Angel often feels lonely, even when he is surrounded by people and that helps him connect with his helpless. He also has a tendency to cut himself off from the people who matter to him.

For Angel, the small picture, the individuals, is just as important as the big picture, the world. Spike is more likely to focus on the bigger picture, but as I said before he wouldn't turn away from someone. And I think by the end of Angel season 5 he began to understand Angel's view

I've heard this said before but I'm honestly not sure what Spike's fighting philosophy is. I know he wants to do the right thing but this is a vague concept seen as there are many different perspectives on what is right. For example we have Wesley vs Buffy in Choices, both of them want to do the right thing but have very different ideas on what that may entail. Angel constantly talking about his mission and what it means to him, he even started his mission helping the helpless when he was with Buffy, (when he tried to help Faith). Spike seems to fit equally well in both Angel and Buffy's world but I'm not sure what he believes in other than 'the fight'. Maybe this is something our blonde crusader is developing. While Angel tries to connect, he is definitely more inwardly motivated (this doesn't mean selfish) but Spike is more externally motivated (what does Buffy want, Am I better than Angel etc) both of these attitudes have served them well in their own way but I think Spike is developing his internal beliefs a lot more but he doesn't necessarily have to follow the path that Angel has, I'd be disappointed if he did. Spike's growth and understanding is unique to him as Angel path is his own.

It was mentioned that Angel did nothing for 100 years. We don't know that. There's no way you can account for all those years. Yes, we see that Angel was homeless in New York at one time. But we also see him living in the Hyperion and trying to get rid of the demon there.

Well yes, we know he didn't do nothing. I always felt a hero lurked beneath the surface but he struggled with himself, his weaknesses and also he wondered a) if it was better for humans for him to stay away from temptation and b) if mankind is worth saving.

Angel had no direction, he had no true understanding of what he was and didn't realize that he could make a difference. Whistler gave him the oppurtunity to do so and Angel threw himself in.

Angel acts as responsible for the things he did or didn't do with a soul but that's part of who is as a person now. It reminds me a little of Faith, there is always a chance to strive to be better. I believe the yen to become someone is something that resides deep inside Angel, even when he was Liam. He wanted to become something more than himself. As Angelus was proved to himself that he was the world's worst vampire, finding value in evil. As Angel he inherently wanted to become someone so eventually he became a champion. Not because it was expected of him but because (as Wesley said) it was a path he'd chosen.

Spike already had guidance with him. So I don't see that as a reason that Spike is better. It's just another point in how different they are.

Like I said, Spike was more externally motivated and his circumstances presented in such a way that he became the person he is. Is this better or worse? Well overall I'd say it was fortunate for mankind that we ended up having two champions who are willing to gives what is left of their lives to help or fight for humanity's sake.

It's also been mentioned that Angel didn't want his soul. Do you really believe that an infamous vampire would want a soul? Yes, Spike went to get his, but for selfish reasons. And Spike was basically defanged. If Spike didn't have the chip I don't think he would be in a hurry to get a soul.

I don't like saying that Spike was being selfish when he got a soul but more motivated by outside influences. Spike never really thought about the nature of evil so it made sense that he could turn his back on it as he didn't hold it close as value system. It's also the same with the world. Spike seemed apt to destroy the world in Season 2 of Buffy yet, it seemed more like he was giving Dru what she wanted seen as her value system seemed more consistent in both the Judge and Acathla stage of the story. Angel seemed more motivated by his belief in evil despite love. Joss implied that Angelus had feelings for Buffy but his belief in evil is stronger We see this mirrored in Sanctuary. He loves Buffy but his mission is his motivator despite love (also see his choice in A Hole in the World). Again different but neither one is better or worse for me.

[Forsaken]

Okay, thought I'd already posted in this thread. Guess not.

As far as Champions go I think that Angel is more committed to being one. This may be due to his having a soul longer or it may not. Spikes motivations tend to be baser.

When Spike gets chipped he fights evil cause that's all he can fight. Then he fights some evil to impress Buffy. When Buffy dies he seems to fight evil because it's the right thing to do, however it may be out of a sense of honoring Buffy's memory. When she comes back he continues to help but he also does some pretty non-champion type things. Then he gets a soul (and not because he wants to help people I might add) and after a brief time spent feeling guilty (Angel on the other hand still broods) decides to help Buffy fight evil. He doesn't go out and fight evil on his own, he helps Buffy. Eventually he finds himself in a position to sacrifice himself to save many others. He does this partly I think because it's what Buffy would want. Partly because he still feels remorse about all those he's killed and also likely because it's the right thing to do. Later when he's miraculously resurrected he mostly only helps those whom he has gained a bond with. Eventually, he starts helping others in large part to show up Angel and to gain future brownie points with Buffy. He's also somewhat manipulated into it by Lindsay. Spike has done the world/innocent people alot of good but he almost always has ulterior motives.

Angel also has some ulterior motives. He is seeking to balance the atrocities he's committed. For a long time after he was re-souled he bounced between doing nothing (while brooding), just trying to keep himself from hurting people, and occasionally helping people (usually in small ways or because he was coerced). Then along comes Buffy (and Whistler) and he's inspired to help people. First her, then people because of her and eventually her by not being with her. Now he's on his own and helping people for the sake of helping them, but nothing too significant until the PtB tell him it's kind of his duty. He realizes that this is a way for him to balance the scales and "helps the helpless". Along the way (between a few bumps) he discovers that he is setting an example for others and seems to understand that this is an even bigger responsibility. He still helps the little guy just for the sake of it though. Near the end he tries to counteract a great evil by controlling it. This puts him at risk of corruption but he feels the risk is worth the potential help it will do. He more or less fails and is corrupted but his intentions remain in the right place. Finally he makes the ultimate sacrifice once again in the hopes that it will redeem his past actions.

So as I see it the "greater champion" is about motivation. And I think Angel has the better motivation.

PS: Angel did help avert an apocalypse in season three during Zeppo I believe.