Spike, Angel, Heroes.

[Beck]

Split from: Spike+-+Ruined+by+Ats%3F

nopowerintheverse said:

Angel's wasnt a self sacrifice in Becoming so i dont think it is in the same vein.

So many times I hear Angel fans claim that Angel saved the world, Angel sacrificed his own life to do so. And... eh? NO he didn't, which is why I've linked Glenn's quote from that other thread.

Angel has saved a lot of lives true. But an apocolypse has never been something Angel has helped with, except in season 3. In The Harvest Angel wanted to run and Xander had to drag him into going after Buffy to help. Becoming - he was causing it lol. He saved people from Jasmine, but was that really an apocolpyse? So in this case, Spike's sacrifice in Chosen, we know that averted the apocolypse. It was the main weapon in the fight against the first. So technically he saved billions of people... billions more than Angel? Does that make him the bigger hero? Is saving the world in one big go more of an acheivement than working at saving individuals? And the fact that Spike was still willing to do this later as well, does that further prove it?

Both are heroes. Thats not in question imo. Both are champions. Who is the bigger champion?

Apologies for disjointed thoughts

[Nico]

I would say Spike. I am purely judging this on the buffy show, which I know may be a little unfair but i havent watched enough Angel.

Spike sacrificed himself in chosen, Buffy, the girl he loved said "thats it, youve done enough" and he said "no , i want to see how this ends" he seen it threw, he had the chance to run but he didnt, he gave up the woman he loved for so long, to save the world.

Also like you said Beck, Angels never averted an apocalypse?, Spike has saved the whole World, including Angel, I agree both are Heroes, but I think Spike wins by a small margin.

[Beck]

Also Angel had his soul for over a hundred years and chose to do nothing for a long time, or helped out very occasionally. Even after he had met Buffy, hed had his soul AND human contact for 6 years more than Spike so obviously Angel had been helping people longer. But I don't think that he actually achieved more than Spike did, or for instance deserved Shanshu more :dunno: In season 2 Ats, Angel did some questionable things, like letting Darla and Dru kill a room full of W&H lawyers, not all who were evil, and they were human regardless.

[buffymanic]

I'd count stopping Jasmine as averting a apocolypse, if Angel hadn't stopped her then the whole of america could have gone under her influence.

As much as I love Angel, you have to admit that Spike has the better morals, he started fighting evil before he had a soul and sure that was because of the chip but he didn't have to help Buffy once he found out he could hit demons. Angel like Beck said has done some very questionable things and he is a very reluctant hero in the begining

[MissSummers]

Yeah I know, but he is hot...

[buffymanic]

Hot as he maybe it has no relevance to his status as a champion........ unfortunately

I think a lot of it depends on their characters when they were human. William was always a good man who lived a very quiet life and always attempted to do the right thing. Liam on the other hand seemed like a typical Irish rouge seeking out trouble and probably would only help a lady out for the opportunity of getting laid!

[jeanvic]

Angel did save the world and he did sacrifice his life to do so. I am tired of all this Spike is better than Angel crap! Angel didn't fight for 100 years for the simple reason, he didn't have Buffy. Spike was insane in a basment and making no ttempt to fight until he found BUFFY! That is the point. Their love for Buffy set them on the path and luckily for Spike Buffy was already there for him. Angel has sacrificed his life once in actual fact. If you go to IWRY, he gave up his humanity and accepted the curse back so he could fight, not so he could impress Buffy. Then, in the very last episode, Angel gave up the one thing that he has wanted for more than 100 years, redemption, without even thinking just so he could save the world.

Yes Spike died in the Hellmouth but even he says that is nothing. All he did was stand there and let it come. He himself knows that saving Fred was his greatest moment and it is for me too. It isn't always about the big picture. Sometimes you have to look at the small picture. Spike is a big picture thinker. He is about the big win, like in Chosen. Angel is about the small win, saving the world one soul at a time. So what Spike died in Chosen. No one knew it was coming so it wasn't bothering anyone. The people Angel saved had personal demons and Angel helped rid them of that. In numbers, Spike has saved more people but personally, Angel has saved more souls and that is what is important.

Who is the greatest champion? Watch every episode of Angel and you'll see.

[Kana]

I don't consider it a scoreboard. I don't admire someone for how long they've been fighting in comparison to someone else, I look at each champions journey and praise them for their accomplishments. To me, to say, his apocalypse is better than the other undermines them both.

In any respect sometimes death is easier than carrying on

Buffy: The hardest thing to do in this world is live in it.

That is not to undermine those who do sacrifice their lives but I tend to value intention over action. That's why I admire everyone from Angel to Lorne, Buffy to Xander, everyone who has attempted to make this world better.

I must say I like Angel's Champion speech.

"Nothing in the world is the way it ought to be. It's harsh, and cruel. But that's why there's us. Champions. It doesn't matter where we come from, what we've done or suffered, or even if we make a difference. We live as though the world was what it should be, to show it what it can be."

Some find this corny I know and I much prefer Angel's Epiphany speech but the reason I like it, is because it's not ego centric. It's not saying, 'I've sacrificed more so I'm better', it's about doing what you can to make the world better, whether it's the smallest act of kindness or protecting the world's dignity of choice or indeed saving the world from unambiguous distruction.

I liked Spike's sacrifice because of his intentions to try to do the right thing not because he actually died. If it was the action in itself then he and Angel were right

Spike: I just stood there, let the fire come.

Angel: Yeah, but you wore a necklace.

If that's all it was, big woot, but it's not all. He did because he believed it was the right thing to do, he didn't compromise.

I don't consider Spike any better than Angel nor vice versa, I just see them as two people trying to make the world a better place.

[jeanvic]

The difference is though Kana, Spike has no desire for redemption and he brags about his achievements. Angel ahs been seeking redemption for years and never brags about what he does.

In my eyes, Angel is the epitome of selfless. He sacrificed his son. He sacrificed his life in IWRY and his redemption in NFA. Never does he brag though.

[Kana]

Angel: I saved the world you know.

Spike: Like I haven't.

Angel:Yeah, but I've done a lot more. [adapted from TGIQ]

Angel doesn't brag? Of course he can brag a little, he's not perfect and neither is Spike. The point I'm making is that they bring out the wrost in each other. Angel makes Spike feel insecure so he feels he has to prove he's the better vampire. It's the same with Angel, he feels insecure because for the first time in a 100 years Spike is actually a legitmate rival. Aside from each other the two are actually not as arrogant. Angel, well, there are many examples prior to Spike's arrival where Angel has expressed a want to do good because he doesn't want to see innocent people suffer. Spike with Fred and Buffy, is a lot more humble and bashful and doesn't claim the credit.

Spike at the beginning of season 5 is by no means perfect. He whines and whines and shows that he has a lot to learn about the burden of being a champion, but he's on his journey. To me Spike went up in my estimation when he wanted to help in LA not out of loyalty but for once, because he believes in it. This was huge for Spike. Both of them developed a lot when they made it less about themselves and more about the fight against evil. Like I said, it's not about Spike taking anything away from Angel, it's about not making comparisons (like Angel and Spike do in Destiny and TGIQ), it's about the world you're trying to make better.

As for mistakes made? Angel has made more mistakes but he's had time to make more mistakes (I'm judging them on the soulled actions as judging a vampire on their unsoulled actions create a myriad of problems, ask Skitty for details) Spike has and most likely will not make the same mistakes....he'll make a whole other bunch of mistakes. Also don't get me started on moral relativism.

[Beck]

jeanvic said:

The difference is though Kana, Spike has no desire for redemption and he brags about his achievements. Angel ahs been seeking redemption for years and never brags about what he does.

In my eyes, Angel is the epitome of selfless. He sacrificed his son. He sacrificed his life in IWRY and his redemption in NFA. Never does he brag though.

I disagree. Spike wasn't fighting for redemption, not because he didn't want it, but because he didn't believe after everything that he had done without his soul that it was possible. He fought because it was right, not because he thought he would ever get anything in return. Which is why Angel fought before he heard about the Shanshu prophecy. And I think that is far more noble, fighting because its the right thing to do, simply for helping people and not for a reward.

I never said Angel wasn't mostly selfless. But he didn't sign away his redemption, I don't believe his redemption would come in the way of the Shanshu, it wasn't about a reward and I think Angel finally realised that after 5 years. It was about doing good, not about becoming human again. I like that he signed it away. It showed to me, that Angel wasn't only fighting because he wanted his reward at the end.

Now I am not saying that Spike is better than Angel. I am saying Angel is not better than Spike and asking the question, how to you measure one's worth as a hero? By the lives they save, or by what they do?

[jeanvic]

I never Spike wasn't a hero. He is a hero and I will argue for that any day but as yet he is no where near being where Angel is at. Spike wouldn't have signed that prophecy away. Angel's journey so far helped him to that decision and it is probably the greatest sacrifice we have seen. Spike is just not there yet.

Angel was never fighting for redemption. Angel was fighting to help people with the hope that one day he would be redeemed. It wasn't his main aim. Angel never truly believed in it anyway.

Beck, you say that you like that Angel signed it away because it shows how much of a hero he is. He shows it far earlier when he is willing to die for Darla even though he can't trust she'll change. That was a defining moment in Angel's story.

Plus, no matter great signing it away was, was it fair? In all honesty can you say it was fair? Angel will now have to live out a life without happiness forever while Spike can have happiness whenever he likes. Angel has suffered for 100 years and Spike has suffered for 2. Tell me in all honesty, is it fair that Angel gets nothing?

[Beck]

How could he be near where Angel is at in his journey? Angel has 100 odd years extra time with his soul. Spike may not have signed away the prophecy, he may have. Its impossible to know. As arrogant as Spike could come across he has shown that he's willing to sacrifice himself, and his own happiness for others. He was willing to stay a non corporeal ghost so that Fred could live. He may not always be entirely selfless, but he has shown a willingness to fight for the greater good with no reward on offer.

Yes Angel was willing to die for Darla. I didnt say him signing away was the only sign that he was a hero. But like his willingness to die for Darla, it showed that he wasn't only doing things for the chance of fulfilling the Shanshu prophecy. We seem to be discussing that in several threads though, so I'll leave any mention of that to go in the Shanshu thread from this point onwards. As for was it fair, whats fair? The lives Spike and Angel took, was it fair they died? Life isn't fair. Does Angel's only chance of happiness come with being human? I don't think it does. Or he could have that whenever he likes by finding a Mohra demon Whether he finds redemption or not has nothing to do with the Shanshu imo. He can still find it on his own. And how can Spike have happiness whenever he likes? As for suffering, that was the point of Angelus' curse. Spike on the other hand sought out his soul, even if it was for selfish reasons. He wanted it, Angel did not. Even with his soul Angel has at times shown that he doesn't care if he loses it again to get away from that suffering (Amends, then later with Darla).

But a hero's worth is not dependant on whats fair and whether they will be happy. Its dependant on who they are and what they do. Which is what this thread is about, not the Shanshu

[Glenn]

Im not really going to get involved in this debate. The whole "who is the better champion/hero" is a bizarre subject for me. They have different missions and differet outlooks on life which makes their agendas different. But if you help people you help people, no one is a better champion.

[Kana]

Yep, I agree with Glenn, which is what I was trying to say in the place. It's not a scoreboard.

[Allan]

This thread was relatively shortlived, but it is interesting. As far as who the "bigger" champion is, it's a tough call. I'll have to go with Spike, though, for the reason that in the short time with his soul, he accomplished far more than Angel did. Angel spent a hundred odd years hiding and moping, staying outside the world's affairs. Spike, while initially taking some convincing, jumped straight into it. I'd imagine that after 100 years of having a soul, Spike would have achieved far more than Angel.

[Laura]

I agree with Allan and a lot of others who say that Spike is the bigger champion because he did more in the short amount of time he had. Also, Spike sought out his soul. Angel's was cursed upon him. I just think that shows a lot about Spike, a side that we often don't see.

[Glenn]

No, i can not agree with that at all. Spike had so much guidance. He had Buffy kicking him up the ass. Angel had no one, no guidance. When the PtB did finally send one of there people to nudge him in the right direction he went straight to it.

[Allan]

nopowerintheverse said:

When the PtB did finally send one of there people to nudge him in the right direction he went straight to it.

Wasn't Whistler sent by the PTB? Because Angel was still just lurking in the shadows, rather than getting right into it over that period of time.

Another thing that I think is worth mentioning here is Angelus vs the not so souled Spike. Angelus was far more evil, far more cunning. He wanted the Earth to be destroyed, unlike Spike who loved the people running around like "little Happy Meals on legs". Neither one had a soul, but Spike was more capable of love regardless, and fought to keep the world somewhat inhabitable. If the soulless vampires are reflective of their souled versions, then it stands to reason that when they get their souls, Spike would be more naturally inclined to do the right thing.

[Lexie]

admin said:

Even with his soul Angel has at times shown that he doesn't care if he loses it again to get away from that suffering (Amends, then later with Darla).

I have to strongly disagree here. Angel does care if he looses his soul. In Amends he says that part of him doesn't care, not all of him. And with Darla I don't think it was about trying to loose his soul. He was at rock bottom and he just wanted to feel something. Besides, do you actually believe that during the time Angel went back to Darla with his soul they didn't have sex? Logically he knows that he can't loose his soul to Darla and even is he thought he could that wasn't the reason he slept with her in Reprise.

Now, about Angel and Spike...I have to agree with Glenn and Paulo, saving people and fighting the good fight isn't a competition. I don't view either of them as being a better hero than the other. Different, definitly, but not better.

It's true that Angel has never had a huge apocolapse to stop, but that doesn't mean he would back out if there was one. Remember, he was willing to wear the amulet in Chosen, but Buffy asked him to leave and he respected her decision.

Spike hasn't saved many individuals like Angel has, but that doesn't mean he's going to walk away from someone in danger.

I will say that I think Spike wouldn't be great at the saving souls deal, though. That doesn't make him a bad hero, it's just not in his personality to reach out to troubled souls the way Angel does.

For Angel, the small picture, the individuals, is just as important as the big picture, the world. Spike is more likely to focus on the bigger picture, but as I said before he wouldn't turn away from someone. And I think by the end of Angel season 5 he began to understand Angel's view

It was mentioned that Angel did nothing for 100 years. We don't know that. There's no way you can account for all those years. Yes, we see that Angel was homeless in New York at one time. But we also see him living in the Hyperion and trying to get rid of the demon there. Angel had no direction, he had no true understanding of what he was and didn't realize that he could make a difference. Whistler gave him the oppurtunity to do so and Angel threw himself in. Spike already had guidance with him. So I don't see that as a reason that Spike is better. It's just another point in how different they are.

It's also been mentioned that Angel didn't want his soul. Do you really believe that an infamous vampire would want a soul? Yes, Spike went to get his, but for selfish reasons. And Spike was basically defanged. If Spike didn't have the chip I don't think he would be in a hurry to get a soul.

As I said before, it isn't a competition. Just because Angel and Spike are different doesn't make one better that the other.