Angel and Spike

[Lexie]

I posted this at Buffytalk several months ago and I was wondering what KAX members thought.

Some people have said that Angel and Spike always hated each other. Does anyone else disagree? I feel that many times throughout Buffy and Angel season 5 there is evidence that that is absolutely NOT true. Yes, I believe there was definite hostility between the two, but they're soulless vampires in a screwed up family. Things aren't going to be cute and cuddly. I also agree that they have serious issues that will never be worked out, but, hey, that's family for ya, right?

I think the following is evidence that they don't hate each other, like so many people insist they do:

~When Angel and Spike first meet again in School Hard:
1. They hug and converse like old companions (even though Spike is only prettending that he doesn't know Angel has a soul)
2. This quote: "You were my sire, man! You were my Yoda!"

~When Spike and Dru first realize Angel has lost his soul in Innocence, Spike is VERY excited and they once again talk like old companions:
1. Spike: No more of this 'I've got a soul' crap?
Angelus: What can I say, hmm? I was
going through a phase.
Spike: This is great! This is so great!
2. Drusilla: How did this happen?
Angelus: You wouldn't believe me if I told you.
Spike: Oh, who cares? What matters is now he's back! Now it's four
against one, which are the kind of odds I like to play.
3. And don't forget the kiss

~How about in Becoming Part 2 after Giles tells them how to open Acathla and Spike "warns" Angelus not to kill Giles:
Angelus: You know, I kinda like having you watch my back. It's kinda like old times.

Season 5 of Angel shows a lot of tension between Angel and Spike, but they also have several "heart-to-heart" talks and there are many flashbacks to their soulless times that show they were friends.

~Destiny flashback:
Angelus: Cross? (grabs William's arm and holds it out into the ray of sunlight beaming through the closed curtains)Do you have any idea what it's like having nothing but women as travel companions, night in and night out?
William: (angrily yanks his sizzling hand away from Angelus)Touch me again?
Angelus: Don't mistake me. I do love the ladies. It's just lately...I've been wondering...(holds his own fist in the beam of sunlight what it'd be like...(watches his hand sizzle)to share the slaughter of innocents...with another man. (turns his hand over so the palm is in the light now; looks admiringly at it as it smokes)Don't... don't think that makes me some kind of a deviant, hmm?(pulls his hand back close to his face)Do you?
Staring at Angelus, William sticks his own hand in the light, voluntarily this time)
Angelus:(laughs, slaps William on the shoulder affectionately) Au ah! I like this one! You and me, we're gonna be the best of friends.

~Destiny flashback:
William: And then, when you leapt up right in the middle of the ceremony, grabbed the priest's head, and squeezed it until it popped like...
Angelus:Rotted melon.
Angelus pulls the woman sitting beside him closer?it's a bride, bleeding from fang marks on her neck, barely alive, but still frightened.
William: Yes! Eyeballs dangling from the sockets, and you shouting, "Frankly, father, thine eyes offend me." (laughs, sits back) Bloody priceless. And beating the groom to death with his own arm, I mean, honestly, you're a bloody killing marvel.
Angelus: Yeah. Have a drink.
William: No, that's your spoils, mate.
Angelus: I've had my fill. Go on, take her.
William: Nah. I think I might go and find Drusilla. She's prowling for street urchins in the east end. Make her happy if I joined her for a bit.
Angelus: She's special, isn't she? Our Drusilla.
William: More than that. She brought me into this world. Where I was meant to be. It's like... she's my destiny.
Angelus: Yeah, she is a sweet plum. I mean, a bit dotty and brain-addled, but...
William: She's not? She's just? It's like she's still got a bit of a child in her.
Angelus: Perhaps 2 or 3 by now. (knocks on the carriage wall behind him) Driver! Stop the coach! (sighs) Happy hunting. Go on. Just be home before sunrise.

~There is a time Angel tells Spike he liked his poems

~End of Damage was a total heart to heart about their soulless days.

These are just a few of the examples I have noticed throughout Buffy and Angel.

I think the main reason they fight, besides the serious issues that they have with each other, is that Spike enjoys getting a rise out of Angel. He loves to piss him off.

I also think that even though there is hostility between Angel and Spike there is definite brother-in-arms companionship at the end.

Does anyone else agree?

[Kana]

I was actually thinking about this and I think one of main reasons for their hostility is not as much to do with their lack of soul but more to do with with their personal issues. I'll probably post more when I'm less tired but from Angelus' perspective he was somewhat threatened by William so in classic Angelus style he seeks to not only corrupt him but take away the one thing that has meaning in his life. I doubt that Angelus hated Spike, he simply liked to hurt him, like everyone else.

I've always felt that Spike was looking for approval from Angelus and of course he never received it. All he received was the sadism that Angelus is famous for.

I will post more when I'm not so tired.

[Deleted]

I definitely agree, Lexie. I think they were much more comrade-y than we're led to believe. I think the hostility came originally from their own fears. Spike was always seeking approval--mostly from the ladies in his life, but once brought into Angelus' family felt he might have a chance of being approved by Angelus. Angelus had a power trip going--even before he became a vampire. (He may have originally been seeking approval or trying to find himself. I'm not denying that. It's just my belief that this turned into a quest/thirst for power.) When he saw Spike's weakness and thirst for approval, he latched onto that and toyed with him to quench his own thirst. Spike, of course, resented being patronized and toyed with and played on Angelus's fears. Deep down, though, I think there was a brothers-in-arms relationship between them. How else would they be so effective at getting under each other's skin?

[buffymanic]

Yeh I agree with ecerything that has been said so far. But I'd add that they are both naturally competative expecially when it comes to women. Lokking at it all the biggest blow up these two have had is over a woman be it Dru or Buffy.

And then again the competative edge came into play in Destiny when they we're fighting for Shanshu. I don;t think either of them really wanted the prophacy to be about them but they definately wanted to keep it from each other.

When it matters though they always pull it together and fight, kind of like a real family. But with these two it doesn't really matter who has a soul at the time and who doesn't e.g in Lovers Walk when Buffy, Spike and Angel fought side by side, then again Angel could count on Spike in Not Fade Away

[shred]

Hate is such a strong word. More like violently dislike each other. I think that their dislike stems from their rivalry and their competition nature.

But when you look at the bigger picture, you can see that they have respect for each other - especially when they are both ensouled. But they don't want to admit it because of their egos.