Back to the well?

[Allan]

Disclaimer: This post is by no means me calling the almighty Joss a hack. It's just some food for thought in the hope of generating some intelligent discussion about the Jossverse. Thank you.

While watching season five of Angel, I was struck with a sense of deja vu. Fred has just died, replaced by a veritable Goddess, Illyria. As beautifully as the whole Fred/Illyria thing was handled, my first reaction was "But didn't we see this last season with Cordelia and Jasmine?".

And let's take Cordelia a bit further, and look at the impact she had on both Buffy and Angel. Cordelia leaves Buffy, and in her wake we get Anya. Another character, played predominantly for laughs, with a completely different - and self-absorbed - world view on the Scoobies. When she leaves Angel, we are given Harmony - a self obsessed, vapid ditz - again, much like Cordy, especially in the earlier years.

During Buffy's third season, Faith went from hero to villain. She was corrupted by - among other things - the Mayor giving her what she always wanted - a family. During Angel's sixth season, Angel was corrupted of sorts, by Wolfram and Hart, who gave him a happy life for his son.

Buffy got an annoying kid sister who nobody likes. Angel followed suit with an annoying son that nobody likes.

The introduction of Andrew is, in many ways, Xander plus.

So, has Joss been recycling his ideas, or "going back to the well"? If so, is this necessarily a bad thing? Can you guys supply any more examples?

Discuss!

[Kana]

Well yes there are more obvious parallels as well. Angel and Spike for one. Both got souls both face people from their past who want to kill them. Gunn and Xander have both been the Zeppo. Spin the Bottle, Tabula Rasa. Buffy and Angel's was a romantic idealised love whereas Spike and Cordy saw Buffy and Angel in the harsh light of day (so to speak) and they saw and embraced the good and bad in them.

Spike(adapted): I've seen the best and the worst of you.

Angel: (Adapted and to Cordy): You've seen the good and the not so good.

And on Connor and Dawn, both of them shouldn't exist.

Good thread.

[buffymanic]

True but I think Joss knew what worked and stuck with it only showing us a different angel. There are many aspects of Anya's character that are nothing similar to Cordy, same with Harmony. Whilst they may have the same 'spirit' as in the way they vew the world and voice their opinion, they are different enough to not be clones and instead would probably have been good friends.

The Angel and Faith parallels I don't quite get. Sure they've both had a fall from grace but that serves to enhance character interaction. The fact that Angel understands what Faith is going through is what allows her to accept reality and come through the other side. They may have both been manipulated by powerful people but not in the same way and certainly not to the same end.

Connor and Dawn was perhaps more than coincidence seeing as they happened at similar times and maybe it was done to have similar themes running through both shows- family and responsibility. But I think they both worked on their own merit...... eventually

my view is that if something is working then why not keep going with it, Cordy was leaving and was obviously heading in a new phase of development, so why not bring in another comedy element to spark with Xander?!

[shred]

And then there's the whole sleeping with the enemy plot. Wesley sleeps with Lilah and Buffy sleeps with Spike, with both characters (Wes and Buffy) using their partners.

Looking at the bigger picture, you can say Joss has been recycling some of the ideas but seeing how the stories turn out different from each other, I wouldn't call him on it. I have to agree with Tash, he showed us a different angle of these plots so it doesn't really come off as recycle or as a bad thing. Well, to me anyways.

[Allan]

All interesting points, guys. For the record, I'm in agreeance about the stories being different enough to stand on their own, though I thought it was interesting to note.

[Beck]

I've noticed the recycled general ideas, but the way Joss did them was always original enough for it not to matter. He even recycled Buffy's death

[Allan]

Yeah, I actually meant to mention that. But that was more me being silly, considering just how different they are.