Shells: What is the soul?

[Kana]

Now this is going to sound a little like one of those "philosophical" threads and it kind of is but it's still kind of interesting because it has implications about our character's personal identity.

I haven't much time but in Shells the talked about Fred's soul being destroyed. Now they talked about it as if it was the essence of who she was and I'd assume it was her consciousness as well as everything else. Now this contrary to the idea that the soul is just a conscience. Spike even said he and Angel were experts but it makes me wonder what he and Angel believe the soul is.

JV will love this thread I'm sure but I think it has implications on Angel and Angelus, Spike, Ryan from IGYUMS, Buffy and Faith, Spuffy and Bangel etc.

So what is the soul?

[jeanvic]

I believe, and have always believed, that the soul is the essence of the person. They are who they are because of it. Vampires are not people because they have no soul. They lose the soul so the person leaves and the demon sets up shop in an empty vessel. Illyria's resurrection destroyed Fred's soul and she inhabited the empty vessel. When the soul returns, the person returns and the demon aka Angelus is fprced down while the person has control. The demon never leaves though and can re-emerge, like we see with Angelus and Darla.

There are a few inconsistencies with the soul, anomalies some would say. The boy in IGYUMS never has a soul, he is just a living, breathing, empty vessel.

Spike is also an inconsistency depending on how you look at it. It could be argued that Spike retained some part of his soul, but it can also be argued that he was a victim of circumstance. Spike had a chip which forced him to live among humans. In that time he developed what I call "warped love". He didn't love Buffy in the proper way. His love was selfish, everything human, soulful love isn't. Look at the contrast between Season 6 and Season 7. He went to get a soul "for Buffy" but really to, in Angel's crude words, "get into her pants." In Season 7, he died for her just to save her, with no thought of self. However, Spike doesn't change like Angel does and keeps his mannerisms and even revels in past actions. There is no new persona or behaviour, just this time he is fighting for the good guys. So, can we say Spike is a unique vampire that retained some parts of the soul and lost others, or is he just not really as susceptible to change like Angel?

I do believe that soul's leave marks though. I believe demons are, in a way, influenced by the memories of the person's life, and I believe it works vice versa. Angelus felt like "he" had been tormented, tortured etc by "his" father so he did the same to others. Illyria had a soft spot for Gunn and Wesley, and to a degree, Spike. Also, when the person returns they are driven by what the demon did, urged on to make up and atone by the very fact of who they are.

I don't believe it is just a conscience, in most cases. If it was just a conscience, Illyria would still be Fred, but wouldn't care. If it was just a conscience, Angel wouldn't be so drastically different from Angelus and would have some humanity in him. So, therefore, I believe it is the essence of the human. The body isn't the person. To quote Yoda : "Luminous beings are we. Not this crude matter."

But, as Joss says, the soul is what it needs to be for the story. His cop out and inability to stick to any form of canon of his own, he has reated a very visible stumbling block and there is still a very massive, and sometimes violent, divide between the camps.

Sorry I didn't get here sooner Kana but I have been busy. Will post more thoughts soon.