Kicked Out

[shred]

batmite79 said:

shred said:

(I hope I'm making sense here. I'm in school right now and I'm typing all this while I'm doing work! Haha. )

LOL, that's what I do here at work!

I don't think that Faith was the best choice, and I do think that they were all ungrateful.

But I don't believe that Buffy should have been put in charge at all. She shouldn't have been given the opportunity to stuff up - the stakes (no pun intended) were high, and while Buffy's a great Slayer, she'd never shown the leadership skills required.

I think the reason why Buffy was mutally appointed as a leader is because she stood up to the plate in the past and since she's the slayer, the rest naturally looked up to her as one.

Yes, she's not one of the best leaders around but because she's born a slayer, she's also born a leader and everyone acknowledges that. In Pangs, the spirit of the Native American considered Buffy as a leader of the people. So I think it comes with the territory. - slayer = leader.

Isn't that why they chose Faith instead of Giles?

[Allan]

See, I think the Slayer=Leader thing went to Buffy's head, and she proved that it isn't necessarily the case.

[Nico]

Leadership and power are one of the same, back around the time frame of Pnags, The strongest member was the leader, nowadays the leaders have all of the power, I think if the leadership went to her head, its because it was allowed to, it was handled poorly, she messed up as a leader, but I think they overlooked alot when they kicked her out.

[Allan]

I also think they overlooked a lot when they let her lead in the first place!

Buffy isn't known as someone who's willing to make the "tough decisions", and wasn't initially able to handle the pressure. Granted, she's the most experienced Slayer, but it doesn't necessarily mean that she's leadership material.

Not that you can really blame Buffy though - I doubt the Slayer Handbook came with a chapter dedicated on how to lead an army of potential slayers to certain doom.

[sosalola]

Sadly, I don't think the Scoobies were that close with Buffy by that time, she had disconnected herself from them and was more attached to Spike. It was very clear how they seemed very disappointed of her lately, the look on Willow's face when Buffy didn't want to stay in the hospital with Xander. Buffy telling Giles she didn't trust any of them but Spike before the scene in Empty Places. Giles telling everybody what Buffy had said. Xander and Willow's look of hurt. Buffy saying that it wasn't a democracy and Xander looking very hurt. There was no connection, no unite between Buffy and her friends. That's where Buffy had gone wrong and she had admitted it in Conversation with Dead People. Her friends reach out for her but she ignores their attempts.

Honestly, I think both sides are wrong. Buffy trying to force them to "fall in line" and Dawn asking Buffy to leave and the others not stopping her, except for Faith who tried to keep her in the house.

However, if the end, I think all of them had learned a lesson. Even Buffy. Buffy was forced to see the faults of her actions and the others were forced to see that they needed to have more faith in Buffy and their abilities.

[Glenn]

Surely they should know though, that when Buffy does her thing she tends to be right and save the day. They let her get on with it against Angelus, she made the plan against The Mayor and she took the plunge in The Gift. I mean they havent always liked her plans before with the sighs and the funny looks but she always manages to pull it off. This sudden U-Turn was not to my liking.

[sosalola]

But Buffy wanted to do the exact same plan that had gotten them to lose in the first place... her explanation was that Caleb was hiding something but she didn't have a proof. The potentials were scared, the Scoobies weren't sure that jumping there with an unarranged attack would do them any good. They were right in a way. Buffy got the idea but she didn't have the strategy. It was only when the bringers were distracted by Faith and the others that Buffy was able to sneak into their hiding and get the weapon.

And in defense of the Scoobies, Buffy had let them down before, she had fallen into traps in When She Was Bad, Becoming Part 1 and Dirty Girls... how would they know that this wasn't another trap set by Caleb? The down point was that there was no communication there. Just Buffy giving orders. No discussions, no suggestions. Even though Buffy had given successful plans in the past, she did rely on her friends to help out. She did ask them what they thought. She was open for suggestions. Also, some of the successful plans in the past belonged to Giles and Xander.

Funny thing though, when Faith got to be the leader, she didn't want anyone to have a say. She did the same mistake as Buffy. And that's probably why she was led to a trap.

[Kana]

I think Buffy has been a little lucky in the past and Angel actually came up with the key to Buffy's plan in Season 3 (along with a deus ex machina dream sequence). I agree with Farah overall in that it wasn't as simple as 'The Scoobies were in the wrong'. Although Buffy's instincts were correct her planning wasn't up to par at that particular point and it was her approach in Touched which made all the difference. She had gained intelligence from Spike and employed a different tack.

[Nico]

Lets not forget Giles blatently told buffy "its all up to you, there lives are in your hands", They appointed her leader, or in otherwards they appointed her leader when they didnt know what to do, then took it away when she messed up, although I agree it went to her head.

If They wernt happy with buffys plan why didnt they say "no , we arent going", they were happy to say "its a trap" but They Still Went, it takes more than One person to have a discussion, They seen her as a leader, she never asked to be it.

I dont think anyone is saying that only the scoobies were in the wrong Kana, infact no one has, but I still think they dealt with a slayer, there best friend, who had got lost in herself, in the mission very badly.

[Kana]

I think the point I was trying to make is that very few people were looking at it from the Scoobies perspective. I understand Buffy's position and I can understand her need for a win, I'm just saying her attitude and the circumstance was somewhat contributive to what happened and I don't see it as a betrayel as such. They never stopped loving her of which Dawn's attitude was indicative.

[sosalola]

I agree that they shouldn't have let her leave that way. But I also don't consider it a betrayal. Dawn's tears after she told Buffy that she had to leave were the answer that it wasn't. Dawn acted as the mature mother who had to let her child leave and find the answer.

I don't think the Scoobies stopped loving Buffy or trying to betray her. But I do think that they weren't as close as they used to, lack of communication, lack of connect was the reason for that. Buffy kept slipping away from them to the point where they didn't know her anymore.

I also agree that Giles was the reason Buffy had hardened and changed into this heartless leader. He put all the weight on her shoulder and it had to make her change.

Then we also have to look at it from Giles' point of view. The council is no more. The council had always been the place Giles sought when faced with something beyond his understanding. I think Giles put everything on Buffy's shoulder because he was scared. I could be wrong though.

[Allan]

sosalola said:

I don't think the Scoobies stopped loving Buffy or trying to betray her. But I do think that they weren't as close as they used to, lack of communication, lack of connect was the reason for that. Buffy kept slipping away from them to the point where they didn't know her anymore.

They never stopped loving Buffy, though I'd say underneath all her bravado, she was still recognisable to them, though. But she was pushing them away, and had been for a while. Buffy went through a lot of stuff that they couldn't comprehend, which always made things difficult.

And does anybody have any new opinions on this?

[shred]

After rewatching season 7, I now come to understand why the Scoobies decided to kick her out. I don't agree that kicking her out was the best choice but I do feel that Buffy shouldn't have been their leader anymore and someone else should have been appointed.

I felt that the power of being leader was getting into her head and a lot of times it was her way or the high way.

Did anyone else change their minds on this when they rewatched the season?

[Bre]

Nope. Every time I watch it, I think it is such a stupid decision. After one thing went wrong with Faith they all said they needed Buffy back. It's not necessarily that they wanted to follow her, but they knew she was the best leader for them. However, if Buffy hadn't gotten kicked out and Spike hadn't said all those nice things to her, she might not have gotten the Scythe and all that.

[Nico]

I still stick with my original opinion to... when you are facing tough times you don't kick your best friend, the one person who has saved there lives countless times out on the street.

Buffy was put in charge, to be a leader you need people to follow you, and they followed willingly, then something went wrong and they decided they didn't want to follow anymore....good decision.... but kicking her out served no purpose (except getting the Scythe and all that) .

Giles really disappointed me, his character was badly written in most of season 7 but this scene really lowered my opinions of my favourite Buffy Character.

In the end they CHOSE to follow Buffy, and that in my book puts them just as much to blame as her, possibly more since they all said it was a trap but went anyway.

[Vyse]

I'm rewatching season 7 just now... I haven't reached Empty Places yet, but I remember that the first time I had watched it I was very upset when the Scoobies kicked Buffy out. I think they were right in refusing to go back and Buffy should have understood their feelings (especially Xander's, since he had just lost an eye), but there was no need to kick her out IMO. That was cruel. I'll be curious to find out if I'll get a different impression when I reach that episode again...