Kicked Out

[Beck]

Was Dawn and the scoobies justified in kicking Buffy out of her house in Empty Places?

I hated it. To be honest, it actually lowered my opinion on everyone in the house, especially Giles. I could actually understand Xander's reasoning, and even why the others didn't want to go back to face Caleb, but the way they treated Buffy was horrible. Kennedy and Rona in particular pissed me off.

Sure, Buffy was being bossy, but kicking her out was very extreme. Especially since it was her house - not Dawn's. As the elder daughter and Dawn's carer, the house actually belonged to Buffy. She had opened her house and let in all of the potentials to stay, to protect them, and this is how they thank her? They could have just left it at "no we aren't going" there was no need to kick her out.

And as Spike said perfectly "You sad, sad, ungrateful traitors. Who do you think you are?"

I am probably not the only one who cheered when he shamed everyone in the house. And they were ashamed, so obviously they knew what they had done was horrible.

[Bre]

Oh hell yes I cheered. I hated it when they kicked Buffy out. First of all, they brought her back to life, took the girl from Heaven for god's sake. So I think the least they could have done was keep her in the house and show a little more respect. Like you said, it is her house. And I lost respect for the other scoobies when they did that. It wasn't right. I mean it worked out in the end anyway.. but it still didnt' seem right.

[Deleted]

They were justified in not wanting to go back to the vineyard and face Caleb again after the horrendous effects of the first excursion. However, the way they went about handling that was wrong. Like Beck said, they didn't need to kick her out of the house. They could have simply not gone, tried to get her to create another plan, created a plan themselves, etc.

It was not their house. Yes, it was Dawn's house in the way that she lived there and was Buffy's sister. However, like Beck mentioned, it was Buffy who was in charge of taking care of both the house and Dawn. They had no authority to kick Buffy out of her own house. If they wanted to distance themselves from her they could have found somewhere else to stay, had they felt that strongly about it.

While I could understand the Scoobies supporting the Potentials, I think they went about doing it in a poor way--even Xander, though he was the best of the lot. They could have taken her aside, talked with her about what they were thinking, perhaps suggested a few things, and then gone back into the rest of the group. There was no reason to basically accuse her and then air her past out in front of the potentials.

[buffymanic]

I was disgusted with the scoobies, they'd been friends for 7 years they should have supported Buffy instead of attacking her. They are the people that know her best and they should have known that Buffy could have been calmed down and talked too, that she would have been able to see reason.

Kennedy did what we would have expected she was just waiting for Buffy to screw up so that she could attack her and Rona has always blamed Buffy for her being a potential even though by bringing her to Sunnydale she saved her life not that she feels the need to be greatful.

[Luke]

i though it was wrong how they all kicked buffy out not just cos it was her house its cos they didnt belive in buffy. after all the work she has done for 7 years and it was like they had lost faith in her. she has saved the world so many times and just cos she made a mistake they all turned on her, of all the people i though would have stuck up for buffy would have been willow but she didnt it made me so mad.
i understand xander and the p/s didnt want to go back but they should not have treted her like that, she deserves respect after saving everyones butts so many times.
she is the main slayer and when anya said that she didnt earn being a slayer she was wrong buffy saved the worl more times then anyother slayer has.

she is the queen of the slayers and to be treted like that must have been hard she didnt deserved to be treted like that not at all.

[Nico]

I dont understand why they kicked her out, when they knew buffy had been beaten almost to death by ubervamps before, after the vineyard they should know its dangerous for buffy to be out alone.

How contradictive that buffy is told "its all up to you, you are responsible for all these girls lives" and then he is part of the force kicking her out. and what is the first thing that buffy did after spike restored her faith? went got the scythe , saved the potentials and faith and held absolutely no grudges.

I loved Spike in that episode, he was fantastic, he saved the day and put the scoobies in there place. Thats real Love, not fake "for the best " Love.

[Beck]

I would have liked to have at least one of the Scoobies stick up for her

*posts solely to bump thread*

[Glenn]

Didnt make sense that she was turned on after one failed mission. Other people had made bad choices throughout the Buffy years but always had each other backing them up. Buffy had jumped toher death for Dawn and the world.

[Kana]

Oh God, I actually thought I replied to this thread already but it was in BW. I'm mostly going to use my posts from BW and explain that I actually see everyone's point of view and how their actions are understandable.

Now lets look at all the characters and their reactions.

Willow and Xander

We have to understand this isn't the first time Willow has questioned Buffy's actions but never has the consequence been so grave. Xander in the earlier episode was talking about trusting Buffy because she's earned it and I believe this is true.Buffy greatest strengths has been her instinct and compassion, yet she leads them to die in Dirty Girls. Xander is really struggling to see Buffy's point because she's just contradicted what he said with her actions and wants to go again. The reason Buffy has been trusted this far because she's always got them through safely so they never had any reason to doubt her but now she wants to lead them to a place where some of them were killed and poor Xander was badly hurt ( a miracle he wasn't killed actually) and it surprises me that people can't see their perspective.

Giles

As for Giles, he was doubting Buffy's judgment anyway. Although I don't agree with his duplicity in LMPTM, it doesn't mean that he was necessarily in the wrong. The whole Spike thing was a judgement call and while it was Buffy's call, it doesn't make it the right call. If Spike had been left alone and the trigger was still activated then I'd agree with Wood (his revenge was actually arguabley irrelevent to the utilitarian argument when you analyse it logically) that Spike could have been a threat. Giles mistrust of Buffy's judgement is not coming out of the blue and lest we forget Glory/Ben.

Dawn

Dawn is surprising I think. Also think about CWDP. FE said Buffy wont choose you. Also Buffy said that if she had to choose between the world and Dawn, she'd choose the world in LMPTM. While Dawn didn't hear this, Buffy's attitude in terms of what wanting to take the offensive after people have been hurt and killed wouldn't allay Dawn's fears that she may put herself and others in danger. She's worried but she's not angry with Buffy because she defends her to Rona. She and Faith are perhaps the most sympathetic to Buffy and have proven it's not jealousy but circumstances which are motivating their actions. I mention jealousy because both of them have been jealous of Buffy at some point.

In conclusion, this was an extreme circumstance and I think the First was the main reason behind it: Divide and conquer and for a while it worked. Look at all the factors, secret messages, Spike, questions of authority and leadership and of course Eve!! Of course these concepts don't arise in a vacuum but I still believe the main reason is the mistrust of Buffy's ability to get them through this alive rather than personal issues.

Like I said, the FE were actually alot more clever than I gave them credit for originally and I think they are the main reason for the 'mutiny'. They used Buffy's greatest skill, her intuition, against her which made people wonder if they can trust her judgement which previously they relied on without any price really being paid. It was actually a pretty decent plan because on the one hand Buffy may have decided that it wasn't a good idea to go back, FE win again but Buffy's instinct were right but people were scared to trust Buffy's decision to go in again when the last time they got nothing but death and injury. Also the Spike plan was pretty good because if they had killed Spike then they would have lost one of their strongest warriors but on the other hand if Buffy protects him, which she was willing to do then considering that she's made dubious decisions regarding Spike before personally, then there's a chance that could be clouding her judgement in terms of what to do with him. On the third hand (lol) if nothing was done then Wood could have been right and Spike could have been their undoing in this battle. That is why this is one of my favourite episodes (much to others chagrin) because when you analyse it you can actually see how it arose. Pretty clever imo.

[Nico]

kana said:

Willow and Xander
The reason Buffy has been trusted this far because she's always got them through safely so they never had any reason to doubt her but now she wants to lead them to a place where some of them were killed and poor Xander was badly hurt ( a miracle he wasn't killed actually) and it surprises me that people can't see their perspective.

See thats what bugs me, the minute she messes up they kick her out, it was the wrong decision for buffy to take the girls there, but didnt faith do the exact same thing? walked right into a trap? and as soon as faith went missing they went out running for Buffy again...

Giles

As for Giles, he was doubting Buffy's judgment anyway. Although I don't agree with his duplicity in LMPTM, it doesn't mean that he was necessarily in the wrong. The whole Spike thing was a judgement call and while it was Buffy's call, it doesn't make it the right call. If Spike had been left alone and the trigger was still activated then I'd agree with Wood (his revenge was actually arguabley irrelevent to the utilitarian argument when you analyse it logically) that Spike could have been a threat. Giles mistrust of Buffy's judgement is not coming out of the blue and lest we forget Glory/Ben.

Giles was Horribly Written, after 6 years, a slayer who has fought threw more than most other slayers, he decides her judgement is clouded, he cant go away then come back and make calls like that without informing the person he is telling is "there leader" all of the time. Although I agree it wasn't out of the Blue, but Giles isnt just a watcher to her, he's her father Figure, I was suprised he showed no compassion towards her.

I think it was a victory for the First, they decided to kick her out, and buffy started to doubt herself after that, a confident slayer wittled down. After Spike went and made her realise what she really is, how special she is, and that she can get threw this, she went to the potentials.

I actually see reason why they would do it, but I thought they went about it the completely wrong way.

[Kana]

See thats what bugs me, the minute she messes up they kick her out, it was the wrong decision for buffy to take the girls there, but didnt faith do the exact same thing? walked right into a trap? and as soon as faith went missing they went out running for Buffy again...

That's not how I saw it. It wasn't the messing up, it was the wanting to go to the exact same place without proof which was a a lot to ask after people had just been killed the last time and Xander had a lucky escape with a major injury. As far as I remember Faith didn't want to do the same thing after she made the mistake. People were not kicking her out because she made mistake, it was because they were unwilling to follow her plan.

Giles was Horribly Written, after 6 years, a slayer who has fought threw more than most other slayers, he decides her judgement is clouded, he cant go away then come back and make calls like that without informing the person he is telling is "there leader" all of the time. Although I agree it wasn't out of the Blue, but Giles isnt just a watcher to her, he's her father Figure, I was suprised he showed no compassion towards her.

Giles knows that Buffy is girl of emotionsand instincts and in the past this has mostly served her well. Unfortunately he knows all to well that these traits are not always an advantage as we saw with Ben where Giles had to make the hard the decision that Buffy wasn't prepared to. Also I think Giles has been worried about Buffy's decision making since Season 6, especially in regards to a certain blonde haired vampire. I don't agree with duplicity in general in such a situation because I honestly think it's dangerous yet, that said, the only way he could have pulled off the plan was behind Buffy's back, like he did with Ben. As for compassion? Like I said, this isn't a question of borrowing Buffy's make up, it wasn't personal (although Rona was) Dawn was the person who told Buffy she had to leave if she wasn't prepared follow Faith but it didn't seem like a personal matter just like Faith attitude, she actually went to see how Buffy was.

I think it was a victory for the First, they decided to kick her out, and buffy started to doubt herself after that, a confident slayer wittled down. After Spike went and made her realise what she really is, how special she is, and that she can get threw this, she went to the potentials.

Absolutely. One of Spike's best qualities is his loyalty and ability to see the truth.

I actually see reason why they would do it, but I thought they went about it the completely wrong way.

Well it was an extreme circumstance but I don't think anyone was entirely to blame. Buffy was asking a lot without any proof and maybe they didn't have to kick her out but keep in mind Buffy wasn't willing to follow Faith.

Like I said, I don't really blame any of them that much. Buffy was right about the vineyard but going without any proof after people had died is not a logical plan. This said, Buffy is still the best leader. Faith on the other hand didn't do badly at all, FE were just very clever and Buffy has fallen into traps in the past, she's just been lucky she had her friends. Remember Buffy had time to think and come up with the 'don't touch me' thing. If she hadn't bothered and they all rushed in then they might have been killed like last time.

I didn't applaud Spike when he had a go at the Scoobies because he was missing the point. Giles was worried about people lives, it had nothing to do with jealousy and Faith never even asked to be leader. Like I said in the Jungian types, Spike's 'F' means he is loyal which is great and he showed that to Buffy (one of my favourite Spike and Buffy moments) that said, Fs don't always look at things dispassionately and logically. He didn't bother thinking about anyone else perspective, dead girls, hurt Xander, he was only worried about Buffy. It's a double edged sword I guess. Anyway, I understand everyone's point of view.

[carrine]

I've got conflicting feelings about this situation.

One on hand, I understand why the scoobies did what they did. They weer pretty much in a time of war and couldn't waste time with a leader who they thought wasn't the best for the job. They were justified in doing what they thought was right even if it's not technically Dawn's house. It's like declaring mutiny, it's not right, or fair, but (in the mind of the sailors) it has to be done.

On the other hand, I think they acted without considering all the sides of the issue. It frustrates me that they let the First manipulate them so much without stopping to question it. And if they took into account everyone's mistakes and successes throughout the years they should know that one bad decision isn't a reason to kick someone out.

But I think Kana summed the whole situation up nicely, and I agree with parts of what you guys said. But I guess I'm a little more sympathetic to the scoobies.

[Laura]

Ug, I also hated Empty Places, simply for this reason! Nobody in that household had any right to kick Buffy out. They should have trusted Buffy, and I love Faith, but she is not a leader. Simple as that.

Plus, maybe Buffy made a mistake in going to the vineyard, but she was trying to be offensive, and it's not like no one else in that household has made a mistake. Besides, Buffy made up for her's when she retrieved the scythe.

I especially agree that Dawn had no right kicking Buffy out. Dawn is her sister for crying out loud, and Buffy has done so much for Dawn. Plus, Buffy has helped Dawn through her mistakes, so why can't Dawn help Buffy through her's?

[Allan]

What makes Buffy automatically better situated to be a leader, though?

[Beck]

It doesn't matter if Buffy was better as a leader (though she was, Faith imo had no planning skills, she was very much about kill kill kill - just look at Bad Girls), it was Buffy's house. She had taken in all these slayers and protected them, helped train them, saved their lives and offered them a place to live and then they kicked her out of her own house! If they wanted someone else to lead them, fine, but they should have been the ones to leave. But talk about ungrateful. Buffy is entitled to some bad decisions and judgements, and in the end her instincts to go to the vineyard were right. The scoobies had known and trusted Buffy long enough to know she wouldn't just go storming back in for no reason, should have trusted her instincts that had so often before saved their lives - even the risky ones.

[Allan]

Oh, I'm not saying that they didn't treat Buffy wrongly. I'm just saying that perhaps she shouldn't have been leading them.

That said, she did end up rising to the occasion.

[Bre]

Buffy was the best leader for that group. That's the thing that got me ... why all of a sudden did these people doubt her motives? Or at least her friends. She has always gotten the good guys to the top, and she makes one mistake and they decide she's not a good leader? That's BS.

[Allan]

It was a pretty big mistake.

And really, when we're talking about leading them, I think Giles would have been a far more logical choice to do it.

[shred]

I was shocked when they kicked Buffy out. I mean, in the past they stuck by her but suddenly they don't trust her to lead them anymore?

I can understand where the Scoobies were coming from - I do agree that there are times when Buffy made the wrong decision - but I think they should understand that Buffy is doing the best she can. She is suddenly put in the position to lead this group of people and she's doing the job the best she know how. Whether it's wrong or not, I think the Scoobies should be supporting her instead of kicking out when something goes wrong.

In the past, they followed her and support her even though she did mistakes along the way so why suddenly turn on her? If they saw that Buffy was doing something wrong, Giles should have stepped up to the plate and take charge - or maybe someone else. He shouldn't have stand aside and let the Scoobies rip into Buffy like that.

I feel that Spike was right when he said that they were ungrateful. They followed her when she kept them safe but kick her out when she doesn't? And when things go wrong, they quickly run back to Buffy. Props to Buffy for letting them come to her and not saying "I told you so."

What I don't get is why they picked Faith as the next leader. Giles is the more obvious choice with his experience. Look at Faith's track record! How can they possibly think she could lead them better than Buffy?

It was a stupid decision in my opinion and I did lose respect for them - especially Dawn. I thought she had no right to kick Buffy out after everything Buffy has done for her as a sister and as a Slayer.

(I hope I'm making sense here. I'm in school right now and I'm typing all this while I'm doing work! Haha. )

[Allan]

shred said:

(I hope I'm making sense here. I'm in school right now and I'm typing all this while I'm doing work! Haha. )

LOL, that's what I do here at work!

I don't think that Faith was the best choice, and I do think that they were all ungrateful.

But I don't believe that Buffy should have been put in charge at all. She shouldn't have been given the opportunity to stuff up - the stakes (no pun intended) were high, and while Buffy's a great Slayer, she'd never shown the leadership skills required.