Cordelia's Evolution - for better or worse?

[Allan]

The bitchiness was still a prevalent part of her character. She was humbled a bit when her family lost their money towards the end of season 3, but she was still "bitchy Cordy".

After the visions, she just didn't become nicer, or more grounded. She lost much of her spark, and it was almost forgotten. All this happened within a few episodes. While her development in Buffy took years, in Angel, it was a matter of weeks, and she was well on her way to losing the bitchiness altogether before getting the visions.

[Beck]

I think her development was in character, but I prefered BtVS Bitch Cordelia. For me, Cordelia didn't lose any of her spark. She still had bitchy moments, she did just become nicer and more grounded imo. And nah, she was still a mega bitch at times before getting the visions. Look at how she was to Buffy in IWRY. She was sometimes bitchy to Doyle too. But not only did she get the visions, she didn't have anyone around to be a bitch to really. The people she associated with were either good friends or demons she was trying to help destroy. So who was there to be a bitch to?

[Kana]

I've always thought Cordy's bitchyness was a self defense mechanism rather than 'the real her'. Cordelia has if nothing else been honest about how she feels as well. I think some of things she said to Buffy in IWRY and Revelations were spot on especially when you consider that Buffy had a superiority complex (something she admitted in CWDP) .

Back to Cordy's defence mechanism, in The Thin Dead Line she was very cold to Angel as she was afterwards when she said they are not friends. Again we've seen precedence of this when Cordy is bitchy to Xander because he's hurt her, just like Angel hurt Cordy so her character change made sense to me. Let us not forget that Cordy and Angel influenced each other. Angel was sometimes a little snarky (he was rarely that on BTVS) and Cordy has more meaning in life.

[Allan]

I wouldn't chalk Cordy's bitchiness up to solely being a defence mechinism. I agree that it was part of it, but she's also a character that went out of her way to be bitchy, and also came out with bitchy things just because she didn't think about what she was saying first.

[Kana]

Well, I think there's a healthy dose of being self absorbed too, but simply saying someone is a bitch who turned into a hero is something of an oversimplification as well. I also noted that Cordy although insensitive has a tendency of telling it like it is or at least how she sees it (something Giles noted and on two occasions Cordy has used the term 'bitch' as a compliment (Rm w/a Vu and Billy). As she grew she became more sensitive which makes sense as I've seen people grow a heck of a lot in the 'Uni' years. Some people I haven't seen since school have changed beyond all recognition mostly through circumstance and indeed Cordy has had some interesting circumstances to say the least.

As for the Spike issue, I had no problem with his development apart from how it calls the whole soulless vampire issue into question, which when you think about it could put Buffy's whole mission into question.

[jeanvic]

I apologise for my earlier comments but I fail to see how someone good like Cordy's development could be seen as bad. Yes we saw the good in Spike before the soul but we saw the same in Cordelia. We saw that when she was away from the Scoobies she was very hurt and low and all she could do was act like nothing was wrong. It was a defence mechanism.

And her transition was not a quick thing. For the remainder of Season 1 she was still bitchy and wanted the visions gone but in TSILA, she felt the pain of the world and it gave her a drive to stop it, just like Spike had a drive to become a man Buffy could love. It's mirrored.

But I think most people dislike her change because it led to C/A and that is what most bothers me. It was the most likely relationship because it was the most true to life. Why do people hate this ship so much when you had terrible ships like B/S and T/W?

[Kana]

Well it's a value thing isn't it? Some people just didn't like Cordelia and Angel together because it didn't 'feel' right to them. I must admit I preferred them as friends but in terms of real life and growing up it makes sense. I've fallen for someone in a similar way myself. When I first met her I didn't even consider her as a potential prospect for romance but she changed so much (in the Uni years) and suddenly she was everything I wanted.

I think what you consider a terrible ship is dependent on what you relate to and/or what you want to watch. I didn't find anything wrong with Spike and Buffy and actually quite liked it as the actors had more chemistry in my opinion but I relate to Cordy and Angel more because it's closer to my experience.

[Allan]

jeanvic said:

But I think most people dislike her change because it led to C/A and that is what most bothers me. It was the most likely relationship because it was the most true to life. Why do people hate this ship so much when you had terrible ships like B/S and T/W?

It goes against the characters and their history. The thought of Cordy repulsed Angel back in the Buffy days.

I'm not a huge fan of T/W either, but the B/S one made sense in my mind. Spike's a "fool for love", and he has a history of women who walk all over him. Buffy was a natural crush for that. As for Buffy's side of things, she wasn't the "healthiest" girl in seasons 5 and 6, and was taking advantage of him. Even when he got his soul, she never loved him, but she did at least find some respect for the character.

The A/C ship to me, seemed like a case of "leading man, leading woman... they need to get together!". Some relationships should be able to remain platonic.

[Shaun]

Cordelia did not repulse Angel. He didn't think of her romantically for a long time, and she annoyed him on Buffy before they spent a lot of time together. But Cordy changed and so did Angel's feelings for her. Which made sense to me with the changes they both went through. Cordy helped Angel connect to people, helped him open up a lot more than anyone else ever had. The grew to trust and respect each other, and that eventually grew to love. History doesn't dictate the future. You can't expect people to stay exactly as they always were and to keep the exact same opinions of people they may not have had a lot of time for once.

[jeanvic]

Thank you. That is all I ask of people that they see what C/A had. You don't have to like it and you don't have to support it but you should be able to see that they had something special. I don't like B/S but I can see the affect they had on each others lives and love or no they had something special.

And Angel being repulsed by Cordelia is a blatant false statement. Angel always got on with Cordelia. I mean, she was the only person in Btvs to make him laugh and that was when he was mad about Buffy. Also, he was very happy to see her in Los Angeles.

[Glenn]

In season two episode Blood Money, Anne asks Angel whether Cordelia's clothes belonged to an old girlfriend of his and he was like "God no" with a pained expression on his face. Why at this point after they had both been through so much was the thought of Cordy as his girlfriend so horrible for him. Also in at the end of season two in Pylea Cordy ruins an escape plan because she has loaded her arms up full of treasures and at the start of season 3 she says she misses Pylea because she was a Princess there. Yet a couple of episodes down the line she remonstrates with Angel because he is thinking more about getting money for his son instead of focusing on the mission. I still think it was a rather sudden transformation. She was certainly making her way there but they appeared to speed it up for plot. Whereas Wesley's progression was slow but sure throughout the entire series.

[Shaun]

I don't think Angel was pained at the suggestion, but he hadn't thought of Cordy as a girlfriend then. I don't think it was a horrible thought to him either, just one he hadn't as yet thought of. He didn't find it so repulsive when he thought she meant she loved him in Pylea And that was before Lorne or Fred said anything to him about loving her.

She still had moments where the old Cordy came through, but she had still already changed a lot. It was right after Birthday when this apparent sudden change happened, which makes sense after what she went through in Birthday. She made the choice then that it was Angel and his mission she wanted to help, then the very next episode he's so obsessed with making money he's not thinking anything through. She was right to call him on it.

[Glenn]

Why do you always have to make sense you git

I still think it comes down to a "you either feel it or you dont" just like a lot of things. I guess the sudden change makes sense after the events of Birthday but so sudden that it caught fans off guard.

[Shaun]

Sorry Glenn I'll try to make less sense next time

[Nico]

I really liked Cordy in ATS, I didn't like the idea of her being in it but when I actually watched it I thought she was great. Until they hooked her up with Angel, then her character was ruined (by hooked I mean having them fall in love) destroyed her for me and I found myself wanting old Cordy back.

I agree they had a close relationship but why does that have to necessarily mean romantic Love? they became close so automatically they had to be in love? the worse part was I saw it coming, I knew what is was leading to and it made it feel like her development was only happening to lead her into Angels arms.

[Ange]

I agree with Nico, I never watched a whole lot of Angel but I remember seeing episode one and thinking about how they would make her Angels new beau. I liked spoiled/bitchy Cordy with a soft side. Not too fond of soft gooey Cordy with a bitchy side.

[shred]

I'm currently rewatching season 2 and I realise how much I'm enjoying Angel's and Cordy's friendship with each other. And I agree with Nico, why did they have to ruin it by making them fall in love?

I would rather have their friendship continued than become into something romantic.

[ToriJ]

For the better overall. It's been too long since I watched Angel so I can't speak for her step by step progression, but I like how her experiences with Buffy and Angel's crew made her a better person in the end.

[James]

Cordy change for the better. That start on Buffy, once she learn what was happening she were always willing to help even before she dated Xander. Then it continue into Angel, she had no other life so course it consumed her and change her. I hate how they ruin Cordy in Season 4, bad send off