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Post by Laura on Apr 10, 2007 3:32:51 GMT 10
After I started watching more of AtS, I finally realized why I liked Buffy more than Angel (the shows, along with the people). I like Buffy better because she isn't like Angel, she is never leaning on the dark side. That is a part of Angel, because he is a vampire, but I like Btvs, and Buffy the hero, better because her integrity is always consistent.
However, this thread is not about Buffy, it's about Angel and his integrity. It seems to falter a lot (especially in season 2), and sometimes I have difficulty understanding why he does something. For example, why did he fire everyone in "Reunion"? Buffy may have had problems with her friends, but even when they fought she clearly remained on the good side. Angel, however, seems to step over the line sometimes.
Thoughts? Do you agree or not? Is the fact that Angel's integrity is questioned sometimes why you like AtS?
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Post by Glenn on Apr 10, 2007 4:03:35 GMT 10
The fact that Angel isn't your simple black and white kind of hero is what makes him so wonderful to watch. Buffy couldn't kill Ben to prevent Glory from reappearing which is fair enough, but i remember practically bouncing out of my seat when Angel locked those Lawyers in the wine cellar. So much more exciting when the good guy is more unpredictable in their actions. He fired his crew because he felt a darkness within himself and didn't want his friends to see what he is capable, or to get caught in the crossfire. I prefer the show Angel over Buffy, and i prefer the character of Angel over Buffy because of the reasons you mentioned why you prefer Buffy  |
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Post by Laura on Apr 10, 2007 4:18:30 GMT 10
. I knew some people would like Angel for those reasons. However, imo, when it comes to the hero of a show, I would prefer white or black. It is nice to see a white and black character for twists, but I prefer that character to be a side character (like Faith). Speaking of Faith, I guess it was a good twist when Buffy said she would kill Faith for Angel. However, she remained good after that  . |
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Post by Kana on Apr 10, 2007 7:02:29 GMT 10
Well I think Angel has a level of integrity but he was faced with seemingly irreconcilable forces. Also Angel's mission statement was slightly different from Buffy's and W&H were able to make use of that. Buffy was about saving lives but Angel was more about saving souls, however when he attempted to save Darla's this is where W&H were able to apply their psychological warfare. As Angel says 200 highly skilled law school graduates were working full time to make him crazy, add that to the fact that he has the constraints of his vampiric nature it's understandable even if it is shocking.
I think it's difficult if you are a vampire and you are faced with human enemies it can difficult. Because if he turns away they get away with it, if you do something about it then it could be exactly what they want? How do you fight something like that?
I think what Glenn said is right about the hero and indeed the show. It relates to adult life. Sometimes there will be difficult decisions to make and it will not always be clear which one is the right one.
Buffy has a moral stance but it's just that a stance. It pisses me off in The Gift when Giles calls Buffy a hero and denies himself that title (it actually doesn't annoy me, it actually makes me admire him more) because the fact of the matter is that if Giles hadn't have made the save then possibly Dawn and the others may have had to pay the price and without Slayer protection.
Buffy's choice in Choices can also be scutinized. Wesley actually gave a pretty convincing counter argument which was dismissed as insensitive but Angel later understands that sometimes a hero has to make these hard choices.
I think Angel also had a hard time with Jasmine but what I liked about that is that he took a stance and that I can relate to more. In a world where there are different religions and politics, we have to choose (or not) to which we subscribe to and it's not always about moral absolutes it's about what's important to us. Angel maintains we can't be saved by a lie yet that what he does for Conner. So Angel and btvs can become about what means something to us as individuals whether it be family friends or a set of abstract principles. Buffy isn't a black and white character either in that respect, her morals and her friends are important to her, yet she instigated an abusive relationship, put her friends in danger due to her ange, threaten people with physical violence even if it is not clear that they are the 'bad guys' etc.
I know this isn't about putting Buffy on trial but the point I'm making is that heroes are flawed in the Verse and of course in real life. Angel has made mistakes but tries to find his way in the world to be a better person and it's the same with Buffy, not to mention the fact that even their so called good deeds can be deemed as questionable from varying perspectives.
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Post by Laura on Apr 10, 2007 11:42:39 GMT 10
Well I think Angel has a level of integrity but he was faced with seemingly irreconcilable forces. Also Angel's mission statement was slightly different from Buffy's and W&H were able to make use of that. Buffy was about saving lives but Angel was more about saving souls, however when he attempted to save Darla's this is where W&H were able to apply their psychological warfare. As Angel says 200 highly skilled law school graduates were working full time to make him crazy, add that to the fact that he has the constraints of his vampiric nature it's understandable even if it is shocking. Very good points, Kana. I especially like your point about the mission statement. I never thought of it like that. I know Angel is a different hero because he is a vampire, and that does make his character interesting, but I have always preferred Buffy as a hero because she does not have the trait- instead she is a Slayer. She is from dark origins, yet she always fights the good fight. That itself is interesting imo. I think what Glenn said is right about the hero and indeed the show. It relates to adult life. Sometimes there will be difficult decisions to make and it will not always be clear which one is the right one. Well, I think that stands for every hero, even Buffy. The right choice is indeed hard to find, but what I liked about Buffy is almost every choice she made ended up being a good one. Now, I'm not saying Buffy is perfect, nor am I saying Angel is awful. All I am saying is any hero can be interesting in that way, because every hero faces tough choices. Buffy's choice in Choices can also be scutinized. Wesley actually gave a pretty convincing counter argument which was dismissed as insensitive but Angel later understands that sometimes a hero has to make these hard choices. Wesley's argument did seem insensitive at the time. We all know where he was coming from, but Buffy must have been confident she could have stopped the Mayor. After all, the people she loved never got in the way of the world before (i,e. Becoming Part 2, Grave). I think Angel also had a hard time with Jasmine but what I liked about that is that he took a stance and that I can relate to more. In a world where there are different religions and politics, we have to choose (or not) to which we subscribe to and it's not always about moral absolutes it's about what's important to us. Angel maintains we can't be saved by a lie yet that what he does for Conner. So Angel and btvs can become about what means something to us as individuals whether it be family friends or a set of abstract principles. Buffy isn't a black and white character either in that respect, her morals and her friends are important to her, yet she instigated an abusive relationship, put her friends in danger due to her ange, threaten people with physical violence even if it is not clear that they are the 'bad guys' etc. Good point. However, Buffy always acted according to her duty. She may have made mistakes, but she didn't make a mistake when it came to saving the world (i,e. Becoming Part 2, The Gift). The problem I had with Angel is he sometimes lost what he said his mission statement was (helping the helpless). After all, he drifted away from that in Season 2 and in Season 5. I know this isn't about putting Buffy on trial but the point I'm making is that heroes are flawed in the Verse and of course in real life. Angel has made mistakes but tries to find his way in the world to be a better person and it's the same with Buffy, not to mention the fact that even their so called good deeds can be deemed as questionable from varying perspectives. Every hero is flawed which is what makes them interesting, but what I meant about Angel is his integrity is frequently questioned. Buffy and Angel make mistakes, but as I said, Buffy continued saving the world and saving lives (her mission statement), yet Angel drifted away from helping the helpless and even saving souls like you mentioned. |
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Post by Allan on Apr 10, 2007 17:38:27 GMT 10
Nine times out of ten, Angel did the right thing. And when he did the wrong thing, he was still doing what he thought was right.
I don't see how shades of grey have really brought his integrity into question.
And yes, Angel drifted, but let's not forget about Buffy leaving at the end of season two, and giving up on her calling. Maybe Angel's issue seems bigger because it took up more episodes (but with the seasonal breaks, Buffy's "downtime" lasted longer).
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Post by Kana on Apr 10, 2007 17:50:56 GMT 10
52549]I know Angel is a different hero because he is a vampire, and that does make his character interesting, but I have always preferred Buffy as a hero because she does not have the trait- instead she is a Slayer. She is from dark origins, yet she always fights the good fight. That itself is interesting imo. I'd say the darkness inside Angel is far greater and indeed people were working full time to bring this darkness out of him. We see the thing inside of him in Pylea. It's hard enough to control as it is. I'm not sure. Buffy has a stance but it's still a stance that can be questioned. Also Buffy has had a lot more unambiguous enemies to deal with. W&H and Jasmine were tougher cookies to crack morally and otherwise. I think Buffy was a little lucky too. I think it's part of her morals and that's fine but the fact still remains that she risked the town of Sunnydale for Willow. Would Larry, Snyder Harmony and some of the others have died if they had found another way? What everyone failed to see is that Wes wanted to protect the town and Willow. If Buffy hadn't had that convenient dream and of course Angel then the town of Sunnydale may have been doomed including Willow. Agreed but like I said Angel was also placed in some irreconcilable situations. What defines us is how we overcome these obstacles and even in Angel's ownky period he's commited himself to deeds that can be considered at least sort of noble, such us stopping zombie cops, saving the world, at least trying to kill the Senior Partners, so it wasn't all bad. In any respect Angel didn't simply follow his duty he changed and grew and developed his moral philosophies above the simple dogma of "Do the Right Thing" Like I said Angel didn't simply go bad, he still saved the world and attempted to protect innocent lives, but after that he didn't go back on track he developed, went on a journey if you will. |
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Post by Laura on Apr 11, 2007 1:23:12 GMT 10
Nine times out of ten, Angel did the right thing. And when he did the wrong thing, he was still doing what he thought was right. I don't see how shades of grey have really brought his integrity into question. And yes, Angel drifted, but let's not forget about Buffy leaving at the end of season two, and giving up on her calling. Maybe Angel's issue seems bigger because it took up more episodes (but with the seasonal breaks, Buffy's "downtime" lasted longer). Yes, Buffy did run, which I certainly didn't agree with, but even in LA she continues to fight the good fight (closing the hell dimension). I am not questioning Angel's integrity, I was just commenting on how imo sometimes his integrity takes a hit because he drifts into grey. As people said, this made him interesting which I agree with. However, I do not agree that it makes him a better hero. That it just an opinion, though . |
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Post by Glenn on Apr 11, 2007 10:58:55 GMT 10
How about when he stood up to Buffy about Faith? That showed integrity. Buffy came looking for serious vengeance yet Angel took a firm stand against her and Faith eventually turned herself in to the police. Becoming a champion of good again.
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Post by Allan on Apr 13, 2007 22:21:58 GMT 10
Drifting into grey doesn't hurt his integrity. The fact that he's had to move there, and has still come out on top have proved to test it, and in the long run have helped it.
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