A Hole in the World - Bleh?

[Beck]

A lot of people seem to rate A Hole in the World highly and that Fred's death was emotional and sad and tragic. Blah blah blah. I found it way too drawn out and by the time it happened, I was thinking finally. Its not that I don't like Fred, I did. But I couldn't feel the sympathy when it was dragged out and over done as I felt it was. Boo hoo, her and Wes had finally hooked up. Sad yes, but did we need an entire episode watching them suffer together? It tried far too hard to be emotional, and ended up backfiring for me. As such its an episode I strongly dislike. Thoughts?

[Kana]

I'll just c&p what I wrote on BW.

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I actually found Shells to be a more compelling episode than A Whole in the World. My reasons for liking Shells is simplistic, it follows on. AWITW seemed somewhat non sequiter in the sense that (and as people have mentioned) Cordy's death was not proportionately dealt with, so the elements of Fred's death seemed more contrived in comparison and indeed we can say the same thing about their relationship. The words set up come to mind.

I find myself liking Shells because we become honest with ourselves see what this is really about, Wes: his reactions, his greif, his mental instability and his complex co dependancy with Illyria. Oddly I found the Wes/Illyria scene in NFA more moving because we had more time to care about them as a twosome, even though it wasn't a conventional ship.

Some thoughts....
* The moment when Wes said that he'd loved Fred before he met her, I had mixed feelings about. Alexis pulls it off but it almost seems a little corny. I can fall in love with a line like it in some ways because it almost mirrors the idealistic romantic notions of Buffy/Angel

*Gunn's reaction and exchange with Wes was better (we got more time for it all to sink in) in Shells.

*Angel and Spike's reaction was interesting. Fred brings them together, and while their interaction at the start can be viewed as contrived it Cavemen/Astronauts symbolism works quite well, I was possibly on my own when thought that, that mix of comedy and drama was fine. It's interesting that Spike says that Angel wants to see things the way he wants them to be. I think that's right in a way. Spike tends to accept that Fred is gone and Angel doesn't want to believe it (well this is more in Shells) and Spike senses that Fred's scent is gone and begins to accept it again but again Angel refuses to accept it. I'm not saying Angel is unrealistic but underneath his intermittent cynicism there is that idealism.

* Season 5 was disjointed cut 'n' shut job, although the arcs in the season were great. It's almost like, "oooh here's an idea, oh damn the network is hurrying me". I always take comfort in the notion that the W&H angle was poke at the network, "put on a suit and play anyone?"

All of this said, if we take Shells and AWITW as one it's actually pretty good. I was mainly being hypercritical but I enjoyed Shells more.

[Allan]

I enjoyed AHITW, but agree that Shells is far better, looking at the ramifications. That said, AHITW still has some great moments, like Lorne reading Fred.

[Bre]

I'm kind of on the other side of the fence Beck is on. I think her death was very quick. And that's part of the reason it didn't really hit me that hard. The acting was good and everything and I love Fred so it should have hit me hard.

The reason I like the episode is that it would be terrifying knowing you weren't going to survive. Something was going to invade your privacy by taking over your body. Knowing that and imagining Fred's fear was exciting. One of the cooler (for lack of a better word lol) death ideas.

[Laura]

I liked the episode, but it never hit me as hard as it hit Alissa. I didn't even cry. Some parts were really upsetting like when she couldn't remember her stuffed bunny's name, and when Lorne read her as Allan pointed out.

However, during the episode I was more angry that the whole thing had happened, and I was surprised that Fred had touched it without worrying about any side effects. I really didn't like how she died the episode after Wesley and her just got together, though- it was like Tara and Willow .

I did probably like "Shells" better also. I especially loved the end of. It was really moving for me, because it showed what every character was doing, and it was like saying Fred had finally gone "home."

[Alissa]

I can't believe some of you don't find that episode heartbreaking.
I first saw "A Hole in the World" when I was watching "Angel" all out of order. I saw it after "I've Got You Under My Skin" and I didn't even know who Fred was and I was bawling by the end of the episode. I just think that the scenes with Fred were so powerful and heartwrenching. That is the only Buffy/Angel episode that can still make me cry, even after seeing it over and over again.

In case you haven't realized, I'm one of the ones that rate it highly.

1/5

[Beck]

Quick Bre? They spent a whole episode with her and Wes moaning about it The flashback to her past, also bored me. I liked the idea, but I didn't like how it was so deliberately drawn out to try and make us sad. Because though I liked Fred, her death was one of the ones on both shows that I wasnt affected by at all. And I disliked the episode.

[Bre]

Not so much quick as all of a sudden is what I was going for. I mean what death isn't sudden, but the story of it went by fast, I thought, for such a loved character. I'm not saying they should have had Fred and Wes moaning for a couple episodes longer just I don't know, the execution could have been different.

[Loz]

I'm not a fan. At all. A lot of that is because they finally hooked Wesley and Fred up just to make the impact of her death worse. And frankly her death shit me. It was a whole bunch of moaning and crying and blah. Don't get me wrong i really rate the performances but i don't rate the writing or directing (sorry Joss ).
And i despise Wesley's line about loving her from before he met her (as discussed elsewhere a few times )

[Alissa]

How? Just... how? I don't understand how some of you don't find the episode sad. I get what you're saying about a Wes/Fred suffering episode, but I'd be pretty upset if I finally got the guy I'd loved for years and he died. How can the episode not affect you(this is addressed to anyone who doesn't find it sad)?

5/5

[Beck]

Because they set it up to be drawn out in an attempt to pull on the heartstrings and it was totally overdone imo. She got with Wes the episode before only so that he could suffer more when she died. All the namby pamby "Oh I've loved you so long" yadda yadda bugs the hell out of me. The flashbacks bored me. The whole episode was ugh.

[Alissa]

I hated that Wes and Fred got together right before she died. Yeesh that bugged me. But I don't think it was overdone. It really did "pull on my heartstrings".
You didn't feel for Wes at all in the episode? Because even if they hadn't been together he still would have been seriously hurting while she was dying.

[Beck]

I felt bad for Wes yes, but more so in the episodes that followed. I don't like that Fred died, I do like her. But the way it was done annoyed me and I wanted the episode to finish and her to hurry up and die so all the moaning and whining was over. It pulled on my gag strings.