Shanshu

[Glenn]

Saw an interesting post by someone on Buffytalk about the Shanshu prophecy

FANS AGAINST THE SHANSHU PROPHECY

Who else is aganist Shanshu? Who else hates it with a fiery passion? The only reason I tolerated it on Angel was because it would make Angel happy and it was a goal to work towards. Other than that I just cannot stand it. Angel. Is. A. Vampire! Period. End of story. No ifs, ands or buts!

As much as I loved IWRY, seeing Angel being defeated so easily did not sit well with me. Plus, Shanshu takes away everything that makes Angel, well, Angel. Angel is a soulled vampire who is tortured by the actions in his past and will do anything to make up for those actions. Being human would change that. There would be no more brooding or working for redemption. He would not be able to properly fight without his vampire powers. He would not have to spend eternity fighting the good fight and trying to right all the wrongs he has done. He would be happy. That is NOT Angel. It destroys everything that makes his character intriguing.

These reasons don't neccessarily apply to Spike, since we have seen that his past actions don't affect him to the degree that they affect Angel.

"What do you want me to do? Go all boo-hoo 'cause she got tortured and driven out of her gourd? Not like we haven't done worse back in the day." ~Spike
"Yeah, and it's somethin' I'm still payin' for." ~Angel
"And you should let it go, mate. It's startin' to make you look old." ~Spike
(Angel season 5, episode Damage)

I don't think Spike would really change as drastically as Angel if he became human, but once again Spike getting his ass kicked doesn't sit well with me. He's a vampire. That's his character. He's strong, he kicks ass (usually) and is an asset to the PTB. It should stay that way.

Let's not leave out that Spike is Angel's childe, they have a history that would be seriously pushed into the bacground if Spike (or Angel) became human.

I find too many people applauding Shanshu and loving it and saying how great it would be if Angel or Spike became human. It sickens me. The whole thing is just WRONG.

So what do we on KAX think?

[buffymanic]

well I have to say I do like the Shanshu storyline but I don't think it would have become available to Angel for a very very long time. I think that he would have many more years of service before the shanshu would have been given or Angel accepted it.

[Sammy]

I liked it....it made Angel and Spike have a long needed fight

[buffymanic]

yeh it was definately good for that. But did Spike want it more or did he just want to beat Angel more?

[Lexie]

Hey! That's my topic! I'm way too tired to write anything else, but I hope I see some other people aganist it. And I do have A LOT to say about it. That was really scratching the surface. Myself and another BuffyTalk member have had a good discussion about it.(kind of rare on BT, right?)

So, let's hear your opinions people!

[Glenn]

I posted a few lengthy replies in BT

[Kana]

I think I did too if I remember correctly. My only new point is perhaps the humanisation theme that was constantly prevalent in Angel. The facts that his acts serve as a journey to his 'reconcillation' with his human side. Also, it serves as the corrot to control Angel which is something he fights against in Not Fade Away. I think humanisation is something Angel (and Spike) will always fight for.

Cordelia: He's kind of human. He has a soul.

To Shanshu in LA

Jasmine: You're not human.

Angel: Working on it.

Peace Out

[Beck]

I liked the Shanshu prophecy but I never believed it could happen, at least not for a very long time. Whether the prophecy was for Angel or Spike is still up for debate imo, though Angel had done more good deeds over the past 8 years, he had more than 100 years head start on Spike. And Spike did something Angel never did - he saved the world, closed the hellmouth. Sure he had help, but it was his sacrifice that did it.

Anyway thats off topic. Basically I think its ridiculous to assume that after 8 years of doing good, after more than a 100 of inspeakable evil acts, Angel could be considered redeemed. And to me his redemption had nothing to do with the Shanshu, Angel will never be redeemed until he learns to forgive himself. That would take a lot longer than 8 years to happen. And if it was just about being human Angel would just go find a Mohra demon (which is actually something he should have told Spike about, because I believe Spike genuinely wants nothing more than to be human again, he doesnt feel the need to constantly fight demons). I also dislike the fact that Angel, the Champion for the PTB, is only fighting for this reward he would be getting at the end.

My respect for Angel as a Champion went up a lot when he signed away the Shanshu prophecy. It proved to me he was still a Champion and not just fighting to become human in the end.

I know a lot of Bangel fans like the Shanshu simply because they see it as how Angel and Buffy will be together eventually. But to me thats absurd - because by the time Angel might have earned the Shanshu - Buffy would either be old or dead.

[buffymanic]

Yep I totally agree and even if it had been offered to Angel in say 20 years I don't think he'd take it, he knows too many dangers and he would want to continue fighting until he thought he'd done all that he could. Maybe that would happen and maybe it wouldn't be I don't think Angel would be satified to leave behind his skills knowing theres more that he could acomplish.

[Lexie]

I know a lot of Bangel fans like the Shanshu simply because they see it as how Angel and Buffy will be together eventually. But to me thats absurd - because by the time Angel might have earned the Shanshu - Buffy would either be old or dead.

There are millions of Spuffy fans who do the same thing.

I have gotten over my hatred for the Shanshu specifically, but I still hate the idea of Angel becoming human. I loved IWRY as much as the next person, but it was pretty clear that Angel is not meant to be human. My original views on that still stand:

As much as I loved IWRY, seeing Angel being defeated so easily did not sit well with me. Plus, Shanshu takes away everything that makes Angel, well, Angel. Angel is a soulled vampire who is tortured by the actions in his past and will do anything to make up for those actions. Being human would change that. There would be no more brooding or working for redemption. He would not be able to properly fight without his vampire powers. He would not have to spend eternity fighting the good fight and trying to right all the wrongs he has done. He would be happy. That is NOT Angel. It destroys everything that makes his character intriguing.

Besides his strength there are also all the other vampiric qualities he would loose. And what about the threat of loosing his soul? That is a big aspect in both shows and added to his character. No demon would equal no threat and that's no fun. Also, Angel isn't Angel without Angelus.

EDIT: Going along with that, Angel's fight with his natural vampiric instincts would be non-existant and I think that struggle adds greatly to his character.

The prophecy itself I am beginning to like because it was something to work towards and because of the way it effected Angel. When Angel became human in IWRY it was an accident, the Shanshu is a prophecy. It gave him hope that he really could be redeemed in the eyes of the Powers. Though, as Beck said, he won't truly be redeemed until he forgives himself and we know that's never gonna happen.

I agree with Tash that Angel wouldn't be satisfied sitting at home doing nothing to help the good fight. We see that in IWRY and he almost gets himself killed for it.

I did hate whenever Shanshu was emphasized. Fighting the good fight isn't about the reward.

[buffymanic]

your right fighting the good fight shouldn't be about rewards but they can't be avoided. If you save somebodys life a lot of people are gonna want to reward you and thatow Angel was paid in season 1. If Angel managed to bring down w&H there would be all kinds of people wanting to reward him

[Kana]

I agree with Lexie that the prophecy was important on account of what it represented.

Like I said before, it is my belief is that the Shanshu was an integral part of the show and character's development, citing hope, arrogance and cynicism raising Angel in particular above a one dimensional character simply fighting for redemption and the good of mankind.

One of the major roles of the Shanshu propecy earlier one was the validation it would have given Angel, the ultimate external validation, something it is hinted that he originally sought from his overly strick father. This of course answers the question of why Angel wouldn't simply kill a Mohra demon and become human, as he doesn't feel he has earnt the right to belong to himself (or by extention, Buffy). Angel seeks this almost trancendent forgiveness and to be washed clean of his sins. We also get the impression that he would wish these rewards would arrive sooner rather than later, a point of Angel's character explored briefly in Awakening, although we know Angel to be more cynical in 'real world'.

Of course prophecy are indeed tricky creatures and with everything that's happened Angel's cynicism in Season 5 seems to be well founded. Although Wesley doesn't agree. Angel's move to Wolfram and Hart has led to lose faith in his being a hero which is made worse by Spike's arrival.

Here the prophecy serves as another point of rivalry (Drusilla, Buffy) between the two vampires leading both of them bring out the worst in each other. Spike admits that he as much as he wants the destiny described in the Shanshu Prophecy, he finally wanted to win against Angel, something he had never really done. Angel on the other hand wanted to keep Spike from a destiny he barely believed in anymore!!!!!

I still think the Shanshu prophecy is important. It's plays an important part in trying to find purpose and meaning and whether or not it transpires becomes merely becomes a matter of metaphysical trickery which cannot serve to undermine the human condition of choice and dignity (at least in terms of Jossverse). Maybe the Shanshu is something that isn't earnt in the literal and is the ongoing process of redemption and understanding and as I've said before reconciliation. Maybe Spike or Angel or another vampire with a soul will acheive 'actual' shanshu but maybe the prophecy will result in divine trickery one way or the other meaning that no vampire with become human but simply knowing about it served or will serve a higher purpose.

So in short, I'm not against the prophecy. Another thing is whether or not the prophecy was interpreted correctly. Either way, I thought the prophecy added a layer to Angel's character above, "brood, brood, looking for redemption. The fact that on two occasions he actually *chose* to be a champion of the people based upon the work itself actually meant more than if there were no alternative. So either way I look at it, I liked the idea of the prophecy but of course I wouldn't have liked to see it transpire and for it to all be a happy ending. BORING!!!!

Also, nowhere in the prophecy does it say "The Powers That Be will make Angel (and not Spike) human and he will settle down and have kids and live happily ever after." I suppose that's something to think about.

[jeanvic]

Well this is my first post on this, what appears to be, a wonderful site. Hello to all of you and I hope we have some great discussions.

Now, on to the shanshu. (One of my favourite discussion pieces.)

Now, I love the shanshu. It is something that gives Angel hope for a better life. It gives him hope that one day he will be forgiven and that is something that has always wanted. It really makes me sad to think that Angel may never be happy because he wants it so much. It also annoys me that Angel can't be happy while Spike can.

Now, I personally would love to see Angel shanshu. He would be happy and finally be free of his curse. That is no to say that he will stop helping. He would just take a more sidelining role like the scoobies (bar Buffy) and the five members of the fang gang that don't really get into world saving battles. A loss of superpowers makes him no less valuable. Look at Wesley, Gunn, Cordelia and Fred. Also, he would be no less broody because he would still feel guilty for what Angelus did. Broody is just in his character. I am brooding nearly 24 hours a day but that doesn't mean I'm not happy. This is me Still brooding though.

Well, that's my two cents on the matter. Maybe post again but right now it is 2:48am, I am tired and I ahve to get ready for work in 10 minutes. Goodnight everybody.

[Allan]

I liked the Shanshu prophecy. It gave Angel (and Spike) hope that one day, if he keeps doing right, he could "become a real boy", a la Pinnocchio.

And when he signed away the Shanshu, he gave up that hope. It made for a great character moment.

[Casi]

The only reason I didn't particularly like the idea of the Shanshu was that it made Angel's road to redemption a lot less selfless. Now granted, it wasn't entirely selfless because he was doing it for himself to a certain degree. But it just felt like, to me, he was trying to do the right thing to make up for all the years of horrible terror he'd left in his wake. And then, with the shanshu, he was no longer doing it for that reason. He was doing it for his reward. Just how it felt to me...I actually liked that he gave it up because it showed that doing the right thing for the world mattered more to him than getting the big pay off.

Though I don't want Spike to shanshu. I think it would be a crap ending for his character.

[Glenn]

I think they addressed the "less selfless" issue straight away in season 2 of Angel. Angel was starting to talk as if he was virtually human already until he finally realised that isnt what he is about.

Wesley "We're not running a race, we're doing a job"

And i dont think Angel really brings it up again

[Beck]

Mmm the Shanshu is brought up a LOT, usually by Wesley I think, but its referenced to how thats what Angel is fighting for a lot. I agree with Skitty and thats my problem with the Shanshu and why I was happy to see Angel sign it away. That made him more worthy of the Shanshu than he had ever been imo.

[Allan]

It added a bit of complexity there, I thought. Granted, the prospect of being human added a bit to Angel's motivation, but it made the resolution of the prophecy tougher for Angel.

[jeanvic]

admin said:

I agree with Skitty and thats my problem with the Shanshu and why I was happy to see Angel sign it away. That made him more worthy of the Shanshu than he had ever been imo.

I agree that he was more worthy of it there than ever before but what is the point of being worthy of it when you can't have it? lol.

[Beck]

Thats like saying whats the point of fighting if you can't win? The point is trying. Its doing the right thing. Would you rather be a achieve something yourself or have it handed to you on a platter? Would you rather be a good person without reward or be a bad person and be loaded with gifts? Angel prefered to do what was right in the end, and thats what matters imo. Thats what makes Angel the champion. It wasn't about being rewarded anymore. And as far as I'm concerned its not the Shanshu that would give Angel redemption, its the decisions he makes, the kind of person (vampire) he is.