Shanshu

[Casi]

Besides, we already know that the powers that be kind of do what they want when they want. If they wanted to reward Angel with humanity, I don't think they'd have to have a centuries old prophecy to do it.

[Glenn]

admin said:

Mmm the Shanshu is brought up a LOT, usually by Wesley I think, but its referenced to how thats what Angel is fighting for a lot. I agree with Skitty and thats my problem with the Shanshu and why I was happy to see Angel sign it away. That made him more worthy of the Shanshu than he had ever been imo.

I meant Angel himself didnt bring it up alot, sitting round the breakfast table with a pint if blood talking about how it shall soon be coco pops he will be enjoying.

[Beck]

He may not have brought it up but he was thinking about it a lot. Wesley brings up in season 5 that without hope for the Shanshu Angel is not alright, or something. And Angel wants it badly or he wouldn't have fought for that cup.

[Allan]

I don't think that Angel being desperate for the Shanshu was the only reason he fought for the cup. I think it's more that as far as he was concerned, Spike wasn't deserving of it, and he wasn't going to let him get it.

[Beck]

Ah, petty Angel is it?

[Glenn]

I think Spike was the petty one going for it when he knew what it meant to Angel

Also

Angel: Spike, wait. Wait. That's not a prize you're holding. It's not a trophy. It's a burden. It's a cross. One you're gonna have to bear till it burns you to ashes. Believe me. I know. So ask yourself: Is this really the destiny that was meant for you? Do you even really want it? Or is it that you just want to take something away from me?
Spike: Bit of both.

[Beck]

Angel had the same reasons for wanting it. They were noth partly being petty. Spike wanted to be human more than Angel I believe. He wanted redemption as much as Angel, he never believed it possible though, so the Shanshu was incredible to him and yes he saw it as a prize. He wanted out of fighting, to have his human life back fully. It meant as much to Spike as it did to Angel imo.

[Allan]

There was definitely pettiness on both sides there. Which is something they tend to bring out of each other.

The one difference there is that Spike embraces his pettiness, and Angel doesn't like to admit it.

[Allan]

I found the following quote by Beck quite interesting:

admin said:

Thats like saying whats the point of fighting if you can't win? The point is trying. Its doing the right thing.

To me, this is one of the stronger themes in Angel, and was prevalent through the final episodes. They went into battle - regardless of the Shanshu - because they needed to.

While skimming this thread, it doesn't seem like anyone was against the Shanshu prophecy (which was the original topic). So, how about everyone who is yet to respond? Or, for that matter, who do you think is more deserving?

[jeanvic]

Angel is more deserving, IMO. 1) He's given more than Spike.
2) He has suffered more than Spike and always will because he can't be happy.
3) He signed it away, while Spike was still talking about it and hiow Angel shouldn't get it.

And I think it should be remembered, if Spike does get it, it will be because of Angel signing it away, not his own actions. It will just be another case of Spike following in Angel's footsteps. He followed Angel to Buffy, the the soul, and now probably the shanshu.

And to your other point Allan. I LIKED the shanshu, but as long as it is attached to Spike's name, I HATE the shanshu. Why?? More Spike worship by Joss, IMO.

Ooh, look at that. I'm petty. Ooh, I don't care.

[Allan]

There's no need to be like that. And while everyone is aware that Angel did sign the Shanshu away, given the same circumstances, there's nothing to say that Spike wouldn't have.

And Angel's inability to be happy does not make him more deserving than anybody else. That would be like saying someone is more deserving of winning something because they're an emo.

[jeanvic]

He's more deserving because he's done and suffered more. Spike has a very blase attitude to the soul, something a lot of fans have noticed in Season 5. He just doesn't care, even wallowing in self glory for past deeds at times. Angel does care though and thinks about it nearly every moment of the day. Why should he be stuck like that forever when Spike could be and wouldn't much care??

Also I don't believe Angel is the same as Angelus. I think they are separate people, which is another reason I think Angel should be freed of Angelus forever.

But as far as I'm concerned, Joss had him sign that shanshu away to free it up for Spike. A lot of Spike fans were pushing, which is evident by what was said after NFA aired, and now they have their wish, as usual.

[Allan]

jeanvic said:

He's more deserving because he's done and suffered more. Spike has a very blase attitude to the soul, something a lot of fans have noticed in Season 5.

In season 7 of Buffy, Spike was told outright that he needed to get over the horror of what he did without a soul and get with the fight. As for Spike's "blase" attitude, different people deal with things in different ways. The fact that Spike wasn't spending his time wallowing in self pity doesn't mean that it wasn't on his mind. He was pushing past it, deciding that he can't change the past. Did it mean that he wasn't out there doing the right thing? No.

jeanvic said:

But as far as I'm concerned, Joss had him sign that shanshu away to free it up for Spike. A lot of Spike fans were pushing, which is evident by what was said after NFA aired, and now they have their wish, as usual.

That's complete and total bullshit, and if you truly believe that, you really don't have much faith in Joss's integrity as a writer. Joss was not out there trying to simply keep his fans happy. Angel giving it away was not simply handing it to Spike, though it was opening it up for more mystery as to who will get the soul. And at no point is it obvious that Joss is trying to appease fans of Spike.

[Lexie]

I know this is completely off topic, but did anyone else notice we have two threads about Shanshu? Do we really need two?

[Allan]

Are you referring to the Spike, Angel, Heroes one, Lexie? It's the only one I can think of, and the topic in that one seems to have evolved to Shanshu-ishness, rather than strictly being about it.

[Lexie]

Nope, in the Angel section there's a thread called The Shanshu Prophecy. It's even on the same page as this one

[Shaun]

Yeah they have turned into the same conversation now, this one should be about who liked the shanshu and not who deserved it. Any more pettiness and insults will get this thread locked, keep it mature.

[Kana]

I think I talked about reasons why it was important on the show but personally I liked it. It reminds me a little of JV's thread about Angel as an existential hero. Part of what is interesting is that our heroes want it but they will fight irrespective of whether they get a reward or not. Will most likely add more but I think it adds more to Angel's character that he'd give up something he wants and there is nothing wrong with Angel wanting it, it only makes humanishand it's these desires that ironically connect him to his mission even if he's willing to give them up and this is something Wesley noted twice. So overall I liked it.

[Lexie]

You guys might see that the opening post was orginially my post in BuffyTalk. Just to be clear, it was several years ago and at a time when I didn;t appreciate Shanshu. I only saw it as Angel turning human, which I don;t like. I do like Shanshu now because I've seen that it's more than that. I do not, however, like when it's emphasized too much. It's not about the reward