Destiny

[buffymanic]

Glenn explain your comment about our hero's becoming tosser's please?

Sure I thought Angel and Spike were childish at times but I wouldn't refer to them as tossers

[Glenn]

They are both heroes and champions. The niggly comments are alright but here they beat the ever holy crap out of one another.

[buffymanic]

shows they had passion. A hero doesn't alway have to be spotless in their decisions, in fact it makes them more human if they've done some questionable things.

Besides that I think Angel and Spike would beat the crap out of each other over the last biscuit in the jar

[Kana]

Yeah, I think the idea of Destiny proves that the Spike and Angel bring out each other insecurities.

Angel now considers Spike an actual rival, what with having a soul and finding out that Buffy has feelings for him and Spike always wanted to get one over on Angel(us).

The problem was that Spike was going after the cup because he wanted that external validation and proof he is better than Angel (insecure much) and Angel went after a destiny he barely believed in anymore to keep it from Spike. They were making it all about themselves, not very heroic is it? They were treating the Cup as a toy, "It's mine" "No it's mine". I wouldn't expect my 6 year old brother to be that immature.

[jeanvic]

Kana, it does have to be said that Angel wasn't in it to keep it from Spike. He wanted it desperately even if he hardly believed it. That was why he went for the cup whenever he beat Spike back.

Spike on the other hand, (sorry if anyone disagrees. It is just what I interpreted) was in it to hurt Angel. Whenever he got an advantage over Angel he wouldn't go for the cup he would just carry on. Spike was in it to hurt Angel by taking away the one thing that made him part of the world and the only thing that gave him hope. He wanted to make Angel bad for how Angelus, someone completely different, made him feel. He wanted the cup, not for the destiny.

Yes I think he wanted it for the destiny as well because he says "little bit of both," but regardless of that he didn't want it for the right reasons enough to deserve it like Angel did and still does.

I think the fight was pathetic. I mean, like I've said before, Spike are Angel were made to be equals all through season 5 so why make them fight? It is degrading to great characters who we know can fight and we know can kick each other's asses. It is was just something done to put something to bed. Angel and Spike fighitng: Whoo! Who's better?
Answer: Neither. That is the answer. They are as good as one another.

Also, it just made them both look like children. Spike has grown over the years and become a vampire that fights for his soul for love. Angel has grown over the years and gone from the broody, handsome guy on Buffy to being the Ptb's champion on earth. As far as I am concerned it was a waste of space where a good episode could have been made, one that makes you think.

Sorry for the ramble but Destiny anoys me.

[Kana]

jeanvic said:

Kana, it does have to be said that Angel wasn't in it to keep it from Spike. He wanted it desperately even if he hardly believed it. That was why he went for the cup whenever he beat Spike back.

Don't get me wrong, the motives were mixed but the point is that both vampires were making it about themselves, their own egos. What you've said hasn't actually contradicted what I've said. Angel was nihilistic and doesn't want Spike to take that little meaning he has left away from him.

Spike on the other hand, (sorry if anyone disagrees. It is just what I interpreted) was in it to hurt Angel. Whenever he got an advantage over Angel he wouldn't go for the cup he would just carry on. Spike was in it to hurt Angel by taking away the one thing that made him part of the world and the only thing that gave him hope. He wanted to make Angel bad for how Angelus, someone completely different, made him feel. He wanted the cup, not for the destiny.

I also think it's mixed on Spike's side. He sacrificed himself to save the world, and now considered himself a hero. He fought to get a soul and he doesn't see why Angel automatically gets to be THE vampire with a soul in the prophecy. Of course he does want to take something away from his grandsire as well as he admits, it's a bit of both. From previous eps, Spike does start to be interested in the prophecy and of course is miffed that everyone thinks it has to be Angel.

Yes I think he wanted it for the destiny as well because he says "little bit of both," but regardless of that he didn't want it for the right reasons enough to deserve it like Angel did and still does.

Ah, I see you've already addresssed the issue of Spike's motivation lol. Anyway, what are the right reasons? Both of them were looking for external proof that they are The One, this is the mistake they both make. As soon as they start looking outward (Angel in NFA and Spike's speech in Shells) then they become more effective to the cause. Both of them are worthy champions when they are not focusing on each other as rivals. Anyway, as much as Spike tries to get one over on Angel, Angel is very reluctant to see Spike's worth as a hero (see Just Rewards for support). That was what was so ridiculous about that fight, they were both trying to undermine the other's worth, only to show how immature they both can be.

I think the fight was pathetic. I mean, like I've said before, Spike are Angel were made to be equals all through season 5 so why make them fight?

For one they were manipulated (rather easily) because of their rivalry and insecurities. From outside the show they wanted to make Angel doubt himself, which set us up perfectly from Your Welcome.

It is degrading to great characters who we know can fight and we know can kick each other's asses. It is was just something done to put something to bed. Angel and Spike fighitng: Whoo! Who's better?
Answer: Neither. That is the answer. They are as good as one another.

I agree, but the interesting thing about the fight isn't really who is a better fighter, its about how both vampires can bring out the worst in each other.

Also, it just made them both look like children. Spike has grown over the years and become a vampire that fights for his soul for love. Angel has grown over the years and gone from the broody, handsome guy on Buffy to being the Ptb's champion on earth. As far as I am concerned it was a waste of space where a good episode could have been made, one that makes you think.

They did look like children and this was my point, they bring out the worst in each other. It's not without precedence. We saw in Chosen how they both bring out the child in each other and Angel admitted that Buffy's feelings for Spike doesn't bring out the champion in him. Angel has shown he can be sarky and derisive due to jealousy when he's not pushed to it (Groo became a little jealous at the end but for the most part he followed Angel) but Spike lived for annoying Angel and they've got history (Angel never considered Spike a hero and now he's a ensoulled champion like himself, yikes!!!!) so it makes sense that their rivalry could reach boiling point if pushed.

Sorry for the ramble but Destiny anoys me.

Understood. If Angel (my fave character) was always heroic and noble then I'd be a little bored of him. Destiny is forgivable but TGIQ is going too far especially after all they've been through together.