jeanvic
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Dec 30, 2006 11:14:25 GMT 10
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Post by jeanvic on Jul 19, 2007 12:17:34 GMT 10
Yeah, and dominates his stony ass!
How is Angel a jerk? I just don't see it. Giving up his one chance at redemption for the world. Giving up humanity for the world. Prepared to die for Darla. Taking over Wolfram and Hart for his son and many more sacrifices etc. Yeah, real jerk.
Plus, he was a really nice person. He treated all of the clients wonderfully, except in Season 2, but we can't blame him for that really. Jerk? I must have watched a different show.
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Post by Allan on Jul 19, 2007 14:37:36 GMT 10
And speaking of jerks, there is a way to formulate an opinion without coming off sounding like one...  |
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Post by Shaun on Jul 19, 2007 20:20:51 GMT 10
Jeanvic, someone else's different opinion on Angel isn't a personal attack on you, don't respond as if it is. Sarcasm isn't necessary, take a breath before you post and relax  Allan, your comment wasn't necessary either. |
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Post by shred on Jul 20, 2007 0:28:51 GMT 10
Like I said, jeanvic, he being a real a** in season 2 changed my opinion of him and he became the least likeable character for me.  |
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jeanvic
Courtier
Posts - 179
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Joined - December 2006
Dec 30, 2006 11:14:25 GMT 10
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Post by jeanvic on Jul 20, 2007 10:56:50 GMT 10
Yeah but he changed after that, didn't he. He went back to normal after his crisis and he was as nice as ever. I do think it's unfair to judge him on his actions over a period of 2-3 months out of 8 years.
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Post by Bre on Jul 20, 2007 11:24:04 GMT 10
I think Angel is a great character. I liked him more on "Angel" but I didn't dislike him on BtVS.
He got a little cranky in season 5 because I think he got a little power hungry.
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Post by Allan on Jul 20, 2007 14:59:03 GMT 10
He got a little cranky in season 5 because I think he got a little power hungry. The story arc was about corruption, or the potential for it. So yeah, it was dangled under Angel when he had the power, and how far it could take him. Eventually, he managed to do good. |
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Post by shred on Jul 20, 2007 15:03:17 GMT 10
Yeah but he changed after that, didn't he. He went back to normal after his crisis and he was as nice as ever. I do think it's unfair to judge him on his actions over a period of 2-3 months out of 8 years. Not really. I didn't like how he was in season 5 and the way he took the W&H deal in Home without consulting the others pissed me off as well. He was ok in season 3 and most of 4 but he was still my least favourite character. |
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Post by Kana on Jul 20, 2007 19:51:54 GMT 10
It's interesting actually because Angel actually saved the world in his dark period, so he wasn't doing too badly. He aso saved a few souls in Season 5 as well.
I actually like dark Angel, I personally find the whiter than white, white hats pretty dull and thankfully there are not that many in the Jossverse, everyone has their failing and questionable behaviour and it's a matter of personal predilection which characters you like and dislike. Neither Buffy nor Angel were villains (well Angel was without his soul but...) they merely had different fighting philosophies.
I actually loved Season 4 Angel at the end because he was rich with philosophical goodness. He defends the human condition as imperfect as it is even though he's not human. I found that very interesting but it's funny how he did a little of what Jasmine did. Jasmine claimed she loved mankind so she wanted to give them everything and sacrificed everything so that mankind would be happy. Hello Angel, relate much? He messed with everyone's free will by violating their memories (Cordy uses the naked word 'rape' I think) and he sacrificed his son and tried to save him with a lie. Could Connor have been saved without a lie? We'll never know but it is also questionable whether mankind can saved either.
What I found interesting is that the whole Connor/Season 5 deal went against Angel's morals which is part of why he suffered so much emotionally. Not only is he working with the enemy but he also took Connor's redemption from him. Angel has always banged on about how redemption is important and how you shouldn't accept the world but he goes against that in Season 5 because he takes the choice out of Connor's hands. Connor has to face what he's done if he is to grow in that respect but all this is because he loves his son. Although Angel is a defended of the human condition, he violates the human rights for very human reasons: love.
As for power in Season 5? I don't he really wanted it. It was mostly a ploy for Black Thorn. The only power he really wants to exercise is the ability to choose.
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Post by Allan on Jul 20, 2007 21:49:33 GMT 10
I actually like dark Angel, I personally find the whiter than white, white hats pretty dull and thankfully there are not that many in the Jossverse, everyone has their failing and questionable behaviour and it's a matter of personal predilection which characters you like and dislike. I didn't particularly like what Angel did while "dark", but I do appreciate that circumstances sent him to the brink. While there, he made some very morally "ambiguous" decisions, but he fought his way through the period, and still came out a hero. |
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jeanvic
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Post by jeanvic on Jul 21, 2007 8:07:10 GMT 10
Exactly Allan. No person on tv or in life has no failings. We all fall and we have to pull ourselves out. If we do, what does it matter that we fell? Yes, Angel went Dark, but it was because he had been pushed too far. He got himself out and regretted it. He beat it and changed. I see no reason to hold it against him. Yes, perhaps taking Wolfram and Hart was a bad thing to do, but why did he do it? To save his son. The money, the power he ignored. He only took it when he needed a way to save Connor.
Did he rape the minds of his friends? Last I checked, Season 4 was horrible on them all and Angel tried to spare them those memories. Wesley was worse for knowing what happened and Illyria saw that. Yes, maybe Angel should have consulted them and asked them. Maybe he was wrong. But we have to remember that he did what he did to help. He stopped world peace to save free will. Is that wrong?
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Post by Kana on Jul 21, 2007 12:49:59 GMT 10
And possibly Jasmine did what she did to help, just because it was in such a way that Angel disagreed, doesn't make it automatically wrong. She even gave a Utilitarian justification for her eating people. Like it or lump it more people will or could die because of Angel's choice. Let's put it this way, we are all going to die aren't we? Would you like to die with people who love you maybe even strangers celebrating your lie after you've gone? Or would prefer the possibility of dying alone or being killed in a drive by or mugging? I like free will but at the same time it's tempting? Middle easten conflict, rape, world hunger, all gone. Is free will such a high price? It's something that can be questioned.
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Post by Allan on Jul 21, 2007 21:52:43 GMT 10
Did he rape the minds of his friends? Last I checked, Season 4 was horrible on them all and Angel tried to spare them those memories. He did what he thought was right, though when all's said and done, I think most would agree that it was a mistake. That said, it wasn't something he did maliciously. |
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jeanvic
Courtier
Posts - 179
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Joined - December 2006
Dec 30, 2006 11:14:25 GMT 10
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Post by jeanvic on Jul 23, 2007 8:19:34 GMT 10
Yes it was a mistake, but we can't hold good intentions against him, really. Wesley had good intentions for taking Connor. While it was the biggest mistake of his life, which in affect destroyed Connor's, he meant no harm. He just wanted Connor safe. Same with Angel.
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