Cordy and Conner - the Ick Factor

[Beck]

Conner let himself be manipulated because he wanted to be loved, the belong. In Jasmine's world, he belonged. His relationship with Angel and everyone else was a lot better, and he was happier. So even though he knew it wasn't real, it felt more real and nicer than what he was used to.

[Lexie]

I used to hate Connor, A LOT, but now I really just feel bad for him. He had been manipulated all his life, told lies--or rather only told the bad things and lives in a a HELL dimension for 17 years (or is it 16?) and is thrown back into the present where he meets his real Dad--who he's suppossed to hate.

Come on--that sucks.

I don't blame Connor for most of his actions, I really think that he simply didn't know any better. I do wish he was more open to different possibilities, though. He refused to let himself believe that Angel could really be a good person. That bothered me.

As for his relationship with Cordy, yeah it is ick, but really only on Cordy's side. Connor didn't grow up with Cordelia as his mother figure. He just sees her as a beautiful women whom he's attracted to. And with Cordy, she wasn't really in control at the time. Yeah, it was icky to the viewers, but I don't think you can really blame Connor or Cordy.

I agree with Beck about how Connor liked Jasmine's world because he was accepted there, without her he continually felt ostarsized. It's no one's fault, it's just the circumstances. Connor wanted to feel love. (Love that he could accept--he had trouble accepting Angel's love for him) Jasmine gave him that. So why would he want to leave that world? You really can't blame him for it.

I really feel bad for the kid. I loved seeing him in seeing five, when he is adjusted, loved and open to others--something he didn't feel in seasons three and four.

[Beck]

I definately have Conner sympathy, but I still dont like his character. I still find the relationship ick, even though its not actually Cordy. I read on another forum (BWF) a point of view that Jasmine was in fact raping Cordelia by having sex with Conner. Its a controversial view point, but not without merit imo. But the whole abduction of her body can also be considered abuse.

[Lizzie]

Gosh Beck, reading that last post really intrigues me. I still can't believe I haven't seen all of Angel. I tried to get it out from the video shop, but it was ALL out. Unbelievable!

Anyway ,this is kinda off-topic, so...yeah. Sorry!

The whole Connor thing does seem very weird though.

[Glenn]

Rape : Forcing of somebody into sex: the crime of forcing somebody to have sex

I think its safe to say, considering that Cordelia still knew exactly what has going on, just without being able to control her actions Jasmine did rape Cordelia. She forced her into sex with Conner which i think its safe to say she would never do in her normal state,

Ewww the whole thing is ickier

[Lizzie]

What was Joss thinking! Interesting, it's something which would never have happened on Buffy. Angel seems a lot 'edgier', do you agree?

[Beck]

Yeah Angel is a lot darker :off:

Basically Jasmine was a fallen PTB who took over Cordy's body and using it had sex to get pregnant so she could give birth to herself. And a whole lot of other events also took place. But the relationship between Cordy and Conner was actually not Cordy - but Jasmine controlling Cordy.

[Glenn]

Oh i completely agree. You could tell right from the first episode when the girl he was trying to save died, and then the second was also much darker than anything seen on Buffy by that stage.

I try not to find the scene ick because of the whole mother/son thing because i scream inside my head that it isn't Cordy and the Conner hasn't grown up with her. But then you think you are witnessing a rape on screen and its just ew

[Lizzie]

*creeps out of thread, promising not to return until she has watch it all!*

[buffymanic]

Its an interesting view and I definately agree it was in a way rape....... but I'm not all together sure Joss cansidered it that way.

I think he thought of it as a way to drive a further wedge between Angel/ Connor/ Cordy and primarily to bring about Jasmine....... rape was just the byproduct of what needed to happen for the storyline to come together

[Beck]

Joss probably didnt consider a lot of the things that get discussed and dissected on his shows

I think it would have been better to have Cordy in season 5 and see how she dealt properly with what happened with Jasmine, whether she would see it as rape or whether she was even in her body at the time. She went up to become a higher being... whats to say the real Cordy even came back in her body? Her soul that is

[Loz]

admin said:

Joss probably didnt consider a lot of the things that get discussed and dissected on his shows

Of course he didn't! Because some people are really scary and think about this shit way too much

I don't consider it rape. I just think its icky.

Anyway sorry, please continue

[buffymanic]

Ok I'm a little fuzzy on this but doesn't Cordy say that she knew everything that was going on but she was trapped inside her body?

*goes to look up transcript*

[jeanvic]

Yes she does say that. You are right. Jasmine had control and poor Cordelia had to watch as her "foster" son did stuff to her.

Now I hate the scene but it has to be said, Connor was a lucky dude. Seriously guys, Cordelia. I mean, come on. Who wouldn't?

Something that gets me and I have raised this on the ultra crap site Buffyworld. Why didn't Cordelia apologise to Angel in Season 5? I know it wasn' her but she apologised for killing Lilah and that wasn't her.

[Beck]

I think she knew Angel understood fully because of the Angelus/Angel factor and that he knew it wasn't her. With Wesley, being her or not, Lilah was his lover and in a way I think he loved her. She felt he needed the apology :dunno:

[Allan]

I agree that she knew Angel understood fully because of his duality with Angel/Angelus. Also, it'd be an awkward conversation to have. "Um, sorry I slept with your son when I was possessed..."

Besides, it could have happened offscreen!

[Kana]

Partially agreed although depending on how you look it at the whole Angel(us) thing may or may not be exactly the same. I post something about that but I agree about Cordy feeling that Wes may not have understood. I don't think it was an apology either, more of a sorry for your loss thing due to her proximity. Angel says something similar to Wes in Players I think.

[jeanvic]

You know I think Joss and the other writers just didn't want to return to the whole Cordy/Connor thing. It wasn't their brightest moment really and I think they were ashamed.

I actually just watched that episode. It is hard to tell that it is Jasmine. It is just Cordelia when I look at her. Just regular old Cordelia looking as beatiful and radiaint as ever, telling Angel she loves him. That's my main problem. I know it was Jasmine inside but I can't see it on screen. It gives me quite the upset stomach. It also doesn't help when you have her looking shocked the morning after and horrified when Angel kicks her out. Why would Jasmine be either?