Cangel

[slayerthe]

Well I said I wouldn't get into this.. but I can't resist .

she gave up being completely human and having her dream life to help Angel.

Her 'dream life' was to be an actress, not fight the good fight. Over time, yes she grew more acustomed to it, but she still always wanted to be a star. In 'Birthday' she still struggled with the choice of becoming a famous actress and lose the visions vs. keeping the visions and fighting. But she chose keeping the visions because of what it was doing to Angel, a close friend. He was going insane because of them, thus she kept them to save him the pain. So no, she hadn't completely given up on it, if she was given the chance and the circumstances were right, then I belive she would choose to be a star, like she always wanted.

Angel left Buffy because she wanted a normal life, or as much of one as she could have had being the slayer. Cordelia had given up on having a normal life, she was as dedicated to fighting as Angel was, And he knows this, so why would he think she wanted any other life? Unlike Buffy who still talked about having children and growing old with Angel. So he didn't disregard that reason, it didn't apply to Cordelia.

So he didn't disregard that reason, it didn't apply to Cordelia.

But it did apply to Cordelia, she could have still wanted children, and we know very well that she would have still wanted to have sex. Both things Angel couldn't provide. Maybe she wanted as close to a normal life as she could get too, Angel doesn't know this, so it apply's to Cordelia as well. Just because she 'chose' to fight that doesn't mean she chose not to have children and have sex, amongst other things. And it's my persoanl belief that Cordelia had just as much of a choice as Buffy did. Cordelia was given the visions, forced to change, and wasn't given a choice in living a normal life. Not until two years after she recieved them, and by then she had already finished changing into this new person.

[buffymanic]

Ok first of all after Birthday Cordelia was absolutely comitted to helping Angel and even if the stardom had been handed to her on a plate, free of visions & consequences she wouldn't have taken it.

As for her giving up on sex, in no way would she have had to do that, in season 5 Angel is quite clearly sleeping with Nina so he is capable of having sex as long as it's not a moment of true happiness. I know you'll come back and say that the would 'risk' it but obviously there other ways of having sex without Angel getting near his true happiness.

You also seem to assume that Buffy has a clear option of a normal life, like Cordelia her path had been chosen well before she even knew about it, so just because Buffy longs for a normal life it doesn't mean she's gonna get it of even come close

[slayerthe]

Ok first of all after Birthday Cordelia was absolutely comitted to helping Angel and even if the stardom had been handed to her on a plate, free of visions & consequences she wouldn't have taken it.

And you have no proof to back this up. During that episode, she would have chosen being an actress if it wasn't for Angel. I think you should watch 'Birthday'.

As for her giving up on sex, in no way would she have had to do that, in season 5 Angel is quite clearly sleeping with Nina so he is capable of having sex as long as it's not a moment of true happiness. I know you'll come back and say that the would 'risk' it but obviously there other ways of having sex without Angel getting near his true happiness.

Erm.. actually no. I forget which episode it was, but we are shown what could have happened if the shaman or whatever wasn't actually evil, and Angel and Cordy would have had sex, and Angel would have lost his soul. There's a difference between his relationship with Nina and his relationship with Cordelia, he was in love with Cordy, he wasn't with Nina. Now I'm not saying that just because he was in love with her, that's the reason he lost his soul, but we do know that if they did have sex he would have lost it.

You also seem to assume that Buffy has a clear option of a normal life

No where in my post did I say that. But I do belive Buffy had more of a choice than Cordelia. While Buffy could have run away from it all, Cordelia couldn't have. Cordy was given the visions, and it's not something she could just forget about.

[Shaun]

slayerthe said:

Her 'dream life' was to be an actress, not fight the good fight. Over time, yes she grew more acustomed to it, but she still always wanted to be a star. In 'Birthday' she still struggled with the choice of becoming a famous actress and lose the visions vs. keeping the visions and fighting. But she chose keeping the visions because of what it was doing to Angel, a close friend. He was going insane because of them, thus she kept them to save him the pain. So no, she hadn't completely given up on it, if she was given the chance and the circumstances were right, then I belive she would choose to be a star, like she always wanted.

She chose to give up on it not remembering her life with Angel, Gunn and Wesley. She instinctively wanted to help instead of walking away, thats what led her to kissing Angel and taking her visions back. Not because they were close friends - Cordelia did not remember her other life in LA. She went to help that little girl before even running into Gunn and Wesley, and before knowing Angel was in danger. She chose not to be a star, because it wasn't the life for her anymore, not the one she wanted, and not the one she was meant to have.

But it did apply to Cordelia, she could have still wanted children, and we know very well that she would have still wanted to have sex. Both things Angel couldn't provide. Maybe she wanted as close to a normal life as she could get too, Angel doesn't know this, so it apply's to Cordelia as well. Just because she 'chose' to fight that doesn't mean she chose not to have children and have sex, amongst other things.

Cordy gave up on all of that when she became half demon to keep her visions. Becoming half demon meant Cordelia didn't know if she could have children anymore, even if she wanted them initially. It wasn't an option for her, fighting was more important to her. Cordelia never showed signs of wanting a normal life anytime after Birthday, and it wasn't until after then that Angel was going to do anything about being with her. He pushed her towards Groo hoping she could have a normal life. It was the end of season 3 when he changed his mind and decided to pursue Cordelia, after she had already made tha decision not to have the normal life he may have previously thought she wanted or deserved.

slayerthe said:

And you have no proof to back this up. During that episode, she would have chosen being an actress if it wasn't for Angel. I think you should watch 'Birthday'.

I think you shouldn't tell people what to watch when you don't have your facts right It was not just Angel that made Cordelia decide to give up being an actress. The life felt wrong to her before she had gone to see Angel, Gunn or Wesley, thats why she went to help that girl, why she went with Gunn and Wesley to see Angel. The stardom was handed to her on a plate without visions and she wouldn't have known about the consequences if it hadn't all felt wrong to her, and she did give it up. Tash isn't the one with no proof here. Cordy was having doubts about her life as an actress even without her memory of working with the others.

No where in my post did I say that. But I do belive Buffy had more of a choice than Cordelia. While Buffy could have run away from it all, Cordelia couldn't have. Cordy was given the visions, and it's not something she could just forget about.

No Cordy couldn't have run from it, which is why your argument about her wanting a normal life the way Buffy did doesn't apply.

[slayerthe]

She chose to give up on it not remembering her life with Angel, Gunn and Wesley. She instinctively wanted to help instead of walking away

She knew something was amiss, that's why she went searching. And she found Angel, and remember Angel. She didn't just go up and kiss Angel out of the blue withought remembering who he was.

Cordy gave up on all of that when she became half demon to keep her visions. Becoming half demon meant Cordelia didn't know if she could have children anymore,

She had no reason to think she wouldn't be able to have children anymore. And this still doesn't solve the having sex/ going out in the daytime problem. Which are two things that we know Cordelia values. She also never made an actual decision as to give up every aspect of having a normal life. Maybe she still wanted a normal romantic relationship? Angel wouldn't know this, so why persue this already impractical relationship?

I think you shouldn't tell people what to watch when you don't have your facts right It was not just Angel that made Cordelia decide to give up being an actress. The life felt wrong to her before she had gone to see Angel, Gunn or Wesley, thats why she went to help that girl, why she went with Gunn and Wesley to see Angel. The stardom was handed to her on a plate without visions and she wouldn't have known about the consequences if it hadn't all felt wrong to her, and she did give it up. Tash isn't the one with no proof here. Cordy was having doubts about her life as an actress even without her memory of working with the others.

My facts are all right, whether you want to believe it or not . If the problem with Angel going insane never came up, there's a good chance Cordelia would have put it all behind her and moved on with her life. The final straw was that Angel was suffering and in a whole lot of pain because of her decision. She didn't want that, and that's why she chose to give up being a star.

No Cordy couldn't have run from it, which is why your argument about her wanting a normal life the way Buffy did doesn't apply.

Ugh.. you lost me.. If Cordy couldn't run from it.. then she didn't have a choice, which is the same exact situation with Buffy. Except I think that Buffy could have run from it all. But anyways, that shows what I said completely applies to Cordelia, like it or not.

This will be my last post, on this forum, about this very disturibing relationship. As I really don't want to get into this on every forum I go to lol

[Shaun]

slayerthe said:

She knew something was amiss, that's why she went searching. And she found Angel, and remember Angel. She didn't just go up and kiss Angel out of the blue without remembering who he was.

Yeah, she still remembered him from Sunnydale, not from her time with them in LA.

She had no reason to think she wouldn't be able to have children anymore. And this still doesn't solve the having sex/ going out in the daytime problem. Which are two things that we know Cordelia values.

How did you come to that conclusion? By the fact Cordelia had sex twice? Sex was never shown as a huge deal to Cordelia. She had no reason to think she would have children. She was fighting a war, one she had chosen to fight. I do not think Cordelia would be likely to bring children into that. And becoming half demon, if children were that important to her, she would have asked Skip if she could still have them. She didn't.

She also never made an actual decision as to give up every aspect of having a normal life. Maybe she still wanted a normal romantic relationship? Angel wouldn't know this, so why persue this already impractical relationship?

She did make the decision to give up a normal life, choosing to fight and become a warrior instead. Cordelia was also a young woman, not a teenaged girl caught up in young love, she knew what she wanted. Angel didn't rush into things with Cordelia, he didn't choose to pursue it until he was sure it was what they both wanted. He never got the chance to take it further.

My facts are all right, whether you want to believe it or not . If the problem with Angel going insane never came up, there's a good chance Cordelia would have put it all behind her and moved on with her life. The final straw was that Angel was suffering and in a whole lot of pain because of her decision. She didn't want that, and that's why she chose to give up being a star.

She didn't want to see people suffer at all. She wanted to help. Thats why she gave it up. Even without seeing Angel, Cordelia had the desire to help that girl - a fact you keep ignoring. She would not have put it all behind her, the same as she didn't when she first came to LA. Being a star was important to her - helping people more so. I do not think there is any chance she would have stuck with the actress life.

Ugh.. you lost me..

Then re-read both mine and your posts

If Cordy couldn't run from it.. then she didn't have a choice, which is the same exact situation with Buffy. Except I think that Buffy could have run from it all. But anyways, that shows what I said completely applies to Cordelia, like it or not.

Cordelia couldn't run from it once she had made the decision to keep her visions, she could not have a normal life. Buffy could have a normal life, she could give up being a slayer, especially once Faith and the the other slayers were activated. So it shows what you said completely does not apply to Cordelia. Buffy wanted and could have a normal life. Cordelia did not want and could never have a normal life.

This will be my last post, on this forum, about this very disturibing relationship. As I really don't want to get into this on every forum I go to lol

[James]

slayerthe said:

This will be my last post, on this forum, about this very disturibing relationship. As I really don't want to get into this on every forum I go to lol

Why you find it disturbing? the only reason you give for not liking it is angel's reasons for chasing her after leaving buffy. how is that make it disturbing?

[Lexie]

I have to agree that it's not disturbing and I can understand it's appeal, but it doesn't appeal to me.

I can understand that the idea of friends growing into something more is romantic and acceptable and believeable. However, Angel had made no actions that insinuated he felt anything more for Cordelia than friendship until after Fred sprouted the whole destined to be together thing.

That's why I say it's rushed. The more than friendly feelings seem to appear out of nowhere. And at time where Angel is still in (hidden) mourning for Buffy.

[Beck]

I'm going to bump this thread as it did actually get good debate going at one point... and I know there are some strong anti-Cangel views so lets hear em.

I'm coming around on it not being rushed I think yes Angel would have (and should have) been mourning Buffy's death - but thats only until he found out she'd come back. It wasn't until after then that anything started to develop. And I'm starting to disagree that Angel showed no signs of feelings for Cordelia before it was mentioned... he certainly cared about her heaps for a long time. And friendship can develop into something more quickly :dunno:

So yeah... I've come around on the Cangel ship. It would have been interesting to see them take it further.

[Lexie]

I still don't like it. Yes, it had been very obvious that Angel cared about Cordelia and maybe even loved her in a friend or sisterly way, but I never saw any evidence that he thought of her as anything more.

I just watched about 3/4 of Blood Money last night and Anne asks Angel if Cordelia is his girlfriend. His response? "God, no!" Yeah, that really shows more than platonic love...

I understand the appeal of good friends growing into something more about something about Cordelia and Angel as anything more than friends just doesn't seem right. They don't...fit. Angel also acts really out of character in regards to the relationship a lot of times. That time (I forget the episode) where Angel tries to tell Cordelia he loves her after Fred gives him that spiel about destined lovers and what not. It was sooo out of character and I wanted to jump in the show and shut him up before he made more of a fool out of himself.

[buffymanic]

mateofangelus said:

I just watched about 3/4 of Blood Money last night and Anne asks Angel if Cordelia is his girlfriend. His response? "God, no!" Yeah, that really shows more than platonic love...

your right Blood Money shows nothing more than a platonic relationship but then again its season 2 when neither Angel or Cordy were showing any further feelings for each other!

From the begining of season 3 I think you can see their friendship strengthen a lot more and its from that strength and closeness that their feelings begin to develop.

I'll admit I wasn't keen in the begining BUT I do see where it would work and it would have been an interesting route to take. I think one of my main objections initially is beacause it felt like the relationship would have been a betrayal on Buffy, because in season 1 and 2 Cordy did make a couple of plays for Angel but that was because of the 'challenge' rather than because she had real feelings for him.

Anyway all that aside I think it could have worked.

[Beck]

mateofangelus said:

I still don't like it. Yes, it had been very obvious that Angel cared about Cordelia and maybe even loved her in a friend or sisterly way, but I never saw any evidence that he thought of her as anything more.

Not true hun, Angel mentions several times that he loves Cordy from Season 3 onwards. And in Spin the Bottle

Angel: Were we in love?
Cordy: Yes we were.

When she's comatose Angel also starts to say something about her still being the woman he loves.

[jeanvic]

Ah, my favourite ship. The real relationship of the people. It had friendship, maturity and none of that beating each other up crap!

Once upon a time I was a stalwart B/A but then I saw the relationship that grew between Angel and Cordelia. They were best friends, confidants and they fell in love. Now I am a stalwart C/A shipper. I even write fics about it. If you want ot kow where to read them, I'll give you the link.

But what really gets me are the people who say that C/A was never anything and it was false and ooc. Wrong! Even the writers said it was the most plausible and believable of all the ships. It was the sweetest and simply the best.

[Glenn]

No way. The writers stopped it from happening because they realised they were making a mistake. Cordy was becoming Buffy incarnate. Buffy died at the end of season 5 yet her soul seemed to pass on to Cordy at the beginning of Angel season 3. This is my least favourite ship of the whole verse. It seemed to be that the writers just wanted to stick Angel with somebody and Cordy was the only one present. They changed her completely to try and suit her to Angels standards. Even the PTB disliked it and sucked her up to stop it from getting any further

[Kana]

Nive one Glenn hahaha. I think Cordy was a little different from Buffy. Both of them were champions (heroes whatever you want to use) and both of them used to be shallow cheerleaders. Cordelia still tends to speak her mind more than Buffy and although she has had the visions I think she handled the responsibility differently from how Buffy handled being a Slayer. Also Cordy still retained her vanity and showed a hint of her averacious side in You're Welcome.

I think Cangel was very different from Bangel in that Cordy actually understood Angel which Buffy rarely did and she expressed frustration about as far in as Season 3 and she's also surprised by his actions in Season 4/1 and doesn't trust him in Season 5 of Angel. I think Cordy and Angel connected on a level that Angel never did with Buffy (the same with Buffy and Spike in a way) and of course that was because the nature of their relationship. Angel and Buffy was very, sexy creature of the night boyfriend. Angel saw Buffy as a idealistic representation of his destiny and becoming, but with Cordy he saw her in a more realistic light and vice versa, unlike Buffy and Angel it was very everyday and almost familial and more grown up I guess.

I'm glad it happened the way it did because they side stepped the whole getting around the curse thing and the almost but not quite adds pathos. This said (no offense to any Cordy and Angel fans) but I felt CC and DB lacked the romantic chemistry (personal opinion, don't stake me). They played well off each other but in the scenes dipicting how the bluffs meeting should have gone it just felt forced and neither looked comfortable (unlike SMG and DB who were on fire in IWRY).

This said, the You're Welcome send off was great but more because of the emotional circumstances and the 'almosts' which made me feel for Angel because I sort of wanted him to have something or be with someone he loved, but overall I was pleased with the way it turned out but I'm glad the 'almost' didn't become an 'actually'.

[Loz]

kana said:

I felt CC and DB lacked the romantic chemistry (personal opinion, don't stake me). They played well off each other but in the scenes dipicting how the bluffs meeting should have gone it just felt forced and neither looked comfortable (unlike SMG and DB who were on fire in IWRY).

Oh hell yes. CC and DB had zip chemistry. Talk about awkward. There is a slight hint of a spark in Waiting in the Wings but thats it. They were more like brother and sister. In comparison the heat between SMG and DB always leapt out at you.

[jeanvic]

Seriously, I don't understand this. How did DB and CC not have chemistry? It felt forced? Really? I doubt it. It looked forced on the bluffs because Angel was dreaming. He was picturing what he wanted to happen with Cordelia... before his bloodlust kicked in. As far as I as I am concerned, they screamed chemistry. They always had it. They were a great pairing. His broddiness and moody ways and her fun loving, carefree attitude. It made for some great television.

And people say it was a rushed ship. Really? The ship took 3 years. Season 3 it began, after Angel saved Cordelia numerous times, his sacrifices obviously touching her. Season 4 revolved mainly around them and Angel even admitted in season 4 that he loved her. Season 5, she wasn't in it cos CC was off with her baby. When they got back together they cleared things up and ended it beautifully. Oh and Cordelia loved Angel because the visions can only pass through love.

And my final point. Lorne, an empath demon, can sense emotions etc and he told Angel that Cordelia loved him exactly like he loved her. Lorne could see it was romantic so why can't all of you?

Expalin to me, why does B/S appeal to all of you when Spike and Buffy were mortal enemies who became lovers? Why? Oh yeah, their friendship, trust, confidance all grew into something special between the two just like it did with C/A. S/B and C/A are very similar so what is the bloody problem? Oh yeah, C/A doesn't involve Spike and it involves Angel. I forgot that Angel can't have anyone else other than Buffy. Grow up.

[Kana]

Ok first of all everyone is entitled to their opinion and with matters such as chemistry and favourite ships, it's entirely a subjective issue. I don't think anyone is who has stated their opinion has shown themselves to be immature in any way.

I agree that Angel and Cordy had chemistry but for me, I felt they lack romantic chemistry. It was more to do with the actors. DB had better romantic chemistry with SMG and Julie Benz in my humble opinion but that's just my personal feeling.

Cordy and Angel made sense to me and like I said she understood him a hell of a lot better than Buffy did.

I'm not sure about the visions being passed through love although I could see how you came up with that theory but definitely no one is disputing that they loved each other.

I think B/S seem to have more chemistry and like the lack of convention in the relationship, unfortunately it renders Spike a metaphysical nightmare. The idea that a vampire do 'the right thing' without a soul seriously undermines Buffy's mission but we can discuss the matter of Spike in my How Should We Judge Vampire thread.

[Shaun]

jeanvic said:

Expalin to me, why does B/S appeal to all of you when Spike and Buffy were mortal enemies who became lovers? Why? Oh yeah, their friendship, trust, confidance all grew into something special between the two just like it did with C/A. S/B and C/A are very similar so what is the bloody problem? Oh yeah, C/A doesn't involve Spike and it involves Angel. I forgot that Angel can't have anyone else other than Buffy. Grow up.

Lay off the attitude.

And for the record Spike/Buffy doesn't appeal to me.

[Allan]

jeanvic said:

And my final point. Lorne, an empath demon, can sense emotions etc and he told Angel that Cordelia loved him exactly like he loved her. Lorne could see it was romantic so why can't all of you?

Seriously, there's no need to get so heated. People have opinions, they're voicing them. End of story.

Yes, Lorne could see that they felt for each other, but that doesn't mean that it has to feel right to each and every viewer.

If, for example, Wesley and Gunn decided that their feelings for Fred was really a projection of how they feel for each other, and suddenly got together, and Lorne made mention that they're inlove, would that suddenly invalidate anyone who doesn't like that particular ship's opinion ?