Cangel

[jeanvic]

You know, I just watched Season 3 (the ultimate C/A season) and I saw nothing but a great friendship become more. I think it was good. I have also noticed that the more people watch it the more they come around to it. Beck for example. She came round to it because she saw it for what it was.

Now, we were having a good discussion on here so can we try and get something started again. Anyone got anything to say?

[Beck]

I know a lot of people who like it more on a second viewing, and in all honesty a lot of people don't like it because either a) they think Angel should be with Buffy, or b) They think it ruined the friendship and felt forced.

I disagree with both. I love that their friendship developed into something more. They truly became best friends, confidants and imo its a much more mature relationship than most that were seen in either show.

[Forsaken]

Angel and Cordelia were very close friends. Why do people always feel that has to lead towards romantic love? I'm going to say this once. Angel did NOT fall in love with Cordelia and as proof of this when he's turned back into Angelus and he's led thru a complicated dream to bring him to true happiness he sleeps with Cordelia.........and wakes up with Buffy's name on his lips. Buffy's name. Fred put the idea in his head and because he did care for Cordelia deeply he started to question. In fact he's still questioning when Cordy is brought back from beyond, he asks Cordy if they were in love. If they were he wouldn't need to ask. Also let's not forget this guy lived for some 240 some odd years, over a hundred with a soul, and he never actually fell in love until Buffy. Then suddenly he's feeling madly in love with every girl he spends more then 20 minutes with?
It is possible that Cordy fell in love with Angel. She had certainly shown interest as early on as season 1 of Buffy. And why wouldn't she? He does have a certain alure about him. Heroic, pretty, mysterious and nobody does better puppydog eyes. However, I for one think Cordy's character lost alot of it's interest and uniqueness as the seasons went on. I still found her character entertaining but she just became another character as compared to Cordy in Buffy who was always a different flavor from everyone else.
I also didn't see the romance chemistry between these two. The deep respect/friendship chemistry yes but Angel had better romance chemistry with other female characters on the show. Gwen and Angel a little, Lilah and Angel oddly, the actress he bodyguards for a while and the demon chick from season 2 (?) definately more chemistry.

[Shaun]

forsaken said:

Angel and Cordelia were very close friends. Why do people always feel that has to lead towards romantic love?

Because the writers decided it had to lead that way

I'm going to say this once. Angel did NOT fall in love with Cordelia and as proof of this when he's turned back into Angelus and he's led thru a complicated dream to bring him to true happiness he sleeps with Cordelia.........and wakes up with Buffy's name on his lips. Buffy's name.

He said her name remembering the last time he lost his soul. He had sex with Darla without losing his soul, without thinking about Buffy. The reason he thought of her was because he felt his soul leaving, not because he was imagining having sex with her while he was with Cordelia. Unless you think Angel is that much of an asshole

Fred put the idea in his head and because he did care for Cordelia deeply he started to question. In fact he's still questioning when Cordy is brought back from beyond, he asks Cordy if they were in love. If they were he wouldn't need to ask.

He was asking to find out if she loved him, he wasn't questioning if he loved her. He had already admitted to himself that he had fallen in love with Cordelia in the previous season, but he was never sure about her feelings for him, she never had the chance to tell him.

Also let's not forget this guy lived for some 240 some odd years, over a hundred with a soul, and he never actually fell in love until Buffy. Then suddenly he's feeling madly in love with every girl he spends more then 20 minutes with?

Every girl? One other girl, one he had spent a lot of time getting to know and feel for. He also spent most of his souled years without close contact to anyone, how would he have fallen in love? Before he became a vampire, he spent little meaningful time with any women, so there wasn't chance to fall in love then either.

It is possible that Cordy fell in love with Angel. She had certainly shown interest as early on as season 1 of Buffy. And why wouldn't she? He does have a certain alure about him. Heroic, pretty, mysterious and nobody does better puppydog eyes. However, I for one think Cordy's character lost alot of it's interest and uniqueness as the seasons went on. I still found her character entertaining but she just became another character as compared to Cordy in Buffy who was always a different flavor from everyone else.
I also didn't see the romance chemistry between these two. The deep respect/friendship chemistry yes but Angel had better romance chemistry with other female characters on the show. Gwen and Angel a little, Lilah and Angel oddly, the actress he bodyguards for a while and the demon chick from season 2 (?) definately more chemistry.

I disagree on almost all of that, but thats all down personal opinion on which characters you like and don't.

[Kana]

I think it's possible that he loved Buffy and Cordy, possibly at the same time lol.

The 'Buffy' at the end of Awakening made me think a little. I mean at the end of that very season he gets all lovey dovey with Buffy when the woman he claims to love is in a coma so the idea of him thinking of Buffy a little in the perfect day fantasy isn't totally strange, but I admit both theories. I mean I don't condemn Angel, I just don't know exactly what he feels. Especially after he moved on relatively quickly after Cordy's death, with Nina but when he was with Nina he was still mooning over Buffy.

I personally think the way in which he loved Cordy was different but not necessarily less. He claimed that he would at least want his friendship back with Cordy even if she wasn't interested in a relationship but I can't imagine him ever being 'just friends' with Buffy. I think Buffy and Cordy had a different part of him. Neither was necessarily less.

[Allan]

kana said:

Especially after he moved on relatively quickly after Cordy's death, with Nina but when he was with Nina he was still mooning over Buffy.

This is a little off-topic, so I'll keep it brief. One thing we saw with Angel and Nina, as well as Giles and Olivia, is that the characters can move on with their lives, and see other people, without necessarily being in love with them.

[Beck]

No way on earth would Angel be thinking of Buffy while having sex with Cordelia. Angel isn't that kind of man. Also, since it was a fantasy if it were Buffy he wanted to be with then he would have been somehow - cause it wasn't real and was all in his head The Chosen scene was completely OOC for Angel, I dont want to go into that again

[Lexie]

I agree. I just watched the Chosen scene between Buffy and Angel on YouTube again and I hated it even more. Yeah, we know Angel gets jealous and even possesive, but the whole exchange was...weird. I guess it was tolerable for a little while, but once they were outside I just wanted it to end. Weird coming from a Buffy/Angel shipper, eh? And don't get me started on the cookie dough speech. We know Buffy can say some strange things, but that was over the top.

Okay, that was off topic, but since Beck mentioned it and I had seen it so recently I had to get it out.

Now, on to Angel/Cordy. Shaun has claimed that I am bias aganist them before I even really saw it. I'm not going to deny that. But it's not only because of my love for Buffy/Angel. I really, really liked the friendship between Angel and Cordy and having that changed bothers me. I never understood why just because they're good friends they're relationship has to become romantic instead of platonic.

[Kana]

I agree. I just watched the Chosen scene between Buffy and Angel on YouTube again and I hated it even more. Yeah, we know Angel gets jealous and even possesive, but the whole exchange was...weird. I guess it was tolerable for a little while, but once they were outside I just wanted it to end. Weird coming from a Buffy/Angel shipper, eh? And don't get me started on the cookie dough speech. We know Buffy can say some strange things, but that was over the top.

I'm not entirely sure what people don't like about the cookie dough speech. If it was how Buffy expressed herself, I can understand that but then the same could be said of other more 'perfect' rhetoric speeches so in the scheme of it while it sounded odd or even lame it was kind of just a silly way of saying something that was important to Buffy and it felt true to have her say it but the strangeness didn't go unnoticed, even Angel said so. Anyway without going too much off topic, I like the sentiment behind the cookie dough speech and maybe in the Chosen thread or maybe a Bangel or Spuffy thread I'll go into more detail.

Okay, that was off topic, but since Beck mentioned it and I had seen it so recently I had to get it out.

I know, I too felt I had to address your comment, but that's it, we'll discuss it further in another thread if you like.

Now, on to Angel/Cordy. Shaun has claimed that I am bias aganist them before I even really saw it. I'm not going to deny that. But it's not only because of my love for Buffy/Angel. I really, really liked the friendship between Angel and Cordy and having that changed bothers me.

Sometimes people remain good friends but then sometimes not. That side never bothered me because I went through something similar. I had a friend and we were like best friends. Everyone said, "Why don't you just get together" an it annoyed us because we thought "Why can't a guy and girl just be really good friends" later on everything changed and we'll leave it at that.

Cangel to me doesn't say that friends under those circumstances must be lovers but sometimes love can come in unexpected ways. Something you see as friendship can turn into something more.

[Shaun]

mateofangelus said:

Now, on to Angel/Cordy. Shaun has claimed that I am bias aganist them before I even really saw it. I'm not going to deny that. But it's not only because of my love for Buffy/Angel. I really, really liked the friendship between Angel and Cordy and having that changed bothers me. I never understood why just because they're good friends they're relationship has to become romantic instead of platonic.

The reasons behind your prior bias weren't important, but until seeing the circumstances in which they did fall in love I find it strange that you would be against it already. Sure if you saw it and still didn't like it fair enough, but your bias was uninformed If you have seen all of seasons 3 and 4 then I am interested to hear if your opinion has changed and if you were able to put aside your original bias when watching it.