Angel(us)

[jeanvic]

IMPO, the demon is indeed created from the template that is left in place by the human. I believe Angelus is everything bad about Angel but that does not make them the same being. I think this is why Angel feels guilty, because he knows his darkness did the evil. Darla said that his evil was innate. I think all humans have this evil in them and the demon is born from that. That again though does not make them the same being.

Kana, you say that the desire to help humans comes from the conscience. How? A coscience makes Angel feel guilty. He wants to help because he hates how people suffer. So answer me this, a question you have never answered to this day. Why would Angel hurt people or save them based on the lack of a soul or the possesion of one? Angelus hates helping people and revels in their suffering while Angel is the complete opposite. So again I ask, why would this perspective change because of a conscience? IMO, it wouldn't.

Yes Darla felt guilty and sacrificed herself for her son, the one person she loved. She was most happy though to allow Angel and the others to be killed and fed to her before the birth. She had no desire to help, just remorse.

And about the memory, as I said, I believe they share some feelings and memory but that is as far as the connection goes. I believe they are partly one being based on this but in terms of psychology and metaphysics, I believe they are different.

[Kana]

In your first paragraph, I think essentially we are singing from the same hymn sheet. If you like whether quantitively different or qualitively changed Angelus is like the darker half of Angel. I'm not saying that Angelus is the 'same' as Angel. clearly he is either a) different from the soul or b) dramatically different when he has no soul (conscience)

I would see the conscience as an increased empathy. Like he said in the bTVS ep Angel.

Angel: (paraphrased) You can't imagine doing what I've done and care.

Essentially Angel cares more with a conscience and with those feelings we looks upon his past actions with disdain. Of this is under the second theory.

As for Darla, I think it's quite reminiscent of Angel. Angel killed or at least try to kill evil doers. He wanted to be Angelus again. Darla never had that chance to change. I suppose the closest thing we'd get to see what she would be like was in Inside Out where she had a desire to help.

I get what you are saying about the psychology and the metaphysics. Yet essentially the memory theory can be reconciled with Theory 2 in a sense. If all that's gone is the conscience then everything else, memories personality remains.

[Lexie]

Yes Darla felt guilty and sacrificed herself for her son, the one person she loved. She was most happy though to allow Angel and the others to be killed and fed to her before the birth. She had no desire to help, just remorse.

I think it is unfair to compare Darla to Angel for several reasons. The first being that in Season 2 she learned that she was dying, she was scared and focused on that completely. Also, she had very, very recently got a soul so she had no chance to really find herself. If she had more time she might have gained a desire to do good. If you recall, Angel spent nearly a hundred years doing nothing but feeling bad for himself. (Not counting that one time with the demon at the Hyperion)

Also, in Season 3 she doesn't have a soul--she's sharing a soul. The soul of her son is infecting her so it's understandable she's not going to be on the good guy band wagon.

But this thread is about Angel, so we probably shouldn't delve into that anymore--make a thread about her if you want.

For the record, I'm still standing by my thoughts in my last post.

[jeanvic]

Well Kana I believe he is separate from the soul because IMO a conscience creates a feeling of guilt but it does not give a person a desire to do something they hate. Again, why woulod Angelus help because he felt bad but still enjoyed people suffering? Why would he return to his evil ways after suffering with a conscience gor so long? He wouldn't do either because of a conscience.

IMO, Angelus suffers beneath the surface as Jasmine said, ever watching, ever thirsty, ever longing to escape.

I do think Angelus is and always will be part of Angel however. I think Angelus' thirst benath the surface appears in Angel, but then Angel hates the desire and gets angry with himself. I think the body belongs to Angelus, it is his and he is always there but when the soul leaves, Angel leaves with it and Angelus is free.

[Kana]

Well the conscience can be defined as our 'moral compass' so as a product of that we would feel bad if we did something wrong (an over simplication I know but I don't want to go 'that' road if you know what I mean) so the idea that Angel(us) under theory two would feel differently about good and evil, that is to say wanting to do good and loathing what is evil and vice versa makes complete sense.

Darla (although this is her perception, like all the theories) states wouldn't be able to love Conner (or do anything 'good') without the soul inside. Even if Angel had a conscience for another hundred years it does not mean he is going to be 'good' without a conscience if he then lost that soul. Indeed someone can be a good person all their life (like Anne, Spike's mother) yet that has no bearing on the fact that without a conscience they go through a dramatic quantitive change (emotional change if we are going to look it from an emotivist angle which of course is possible), so Angel and Angelus can described as different or indeed different states.

Like I said I don't think Angelus is simply 'the thirst' it is the very embodiment of Liam's darker elements of his pysche.

Another interesting matter is Eternity. Under theory 1, Angel's body is tricked into thinking his soul isn't present (Curse) so his demon (Angelus) takes control but when it wears off, the soul (Angel or Liam) is back in control of the body.

However Joss likes to feed in his metaphors and themes and the drug theme is more consistent with theory 2 and of course so is the idea of the thin line one walks when trying to escape the evil ways of their past. Perhaps Angel (under this theory) when drugged, no longer feels the weight of his conscience and is able to act as if it were not present. He able to act without caring as such and isn't that a beautiful metaphor for the dark allure of drug use. 'Under the influence' you can do all sorts of horrible things yet when you 'come down' you begin to feel remorse for YOUR actions.

Like I said, I can accept both theories.

[jeanvic]

Well, like I have said, I support Theory 1 and I doubt my stance shall ever change.

But the theory about Spike's mother falls through. Why would she hurt her son just because she could? You still fail to answer my question Kana. Why would Angel do things he hates because he has no soul and Angelus do things he hates because he has one? Angel doesn't just feel l bad for what he has done, he hates the thought of what he used to do. So why would he do it just because he doesn't feel bad?

[Kana]

Spike's mother had those those feelings (of William clutching to his mother's apron strings) when she was human yet didn't want to express them because of her soul. Of course a vampire will feel a call to darkness based upon their nature (which Holden etc expressed).

As for Angel and Angelus, I thought I aldready answered the question in that the lack of soul and bloodlust and call to darkness bring out a certain side of Liam's personality. My point was that the awkwardness, heroism, sadism, daddy issues are all part of Liam's intention. The soul accounts for the intent. Angel hates doing evil because having a soul changes his intent and without a soul he has no positive intent. His emotional change is accountable for that.

If you subscribe to theory 1 that's fine but theory 2 is plausible.

[Beck]

Booh philosophy schmosophy! If you want to compare the two vamps, please start a thread for that elsewhere

Favourite Angelus moments? Favourite Angel moments?

[Lexie]

Thank you, Beck! Back to non-philosophical talk about my lover.

Favorite Angelus moments...making me choose is so evil...

In no particular order...

Everything in Passion
His speech to Spike about Buffy in Innocence
His talks with Buffy in Innocence--especially when he's pretending to have a soul
Basically anything he's ever said to Buffy

Angel moments...
His exchange with Buffy at the end of Sanctuary
Convent scene with Darla
Signing away Shanshu in Not Fade Away

There are a lot more, but I'm tired

[Kana]

Sorry about the debate. I got carried away.

Angelus higlights

1. Stalking his victims then marks their cheek with a cross and feeds on them before they can die of fear. Good idea at the time but Penn got a bit boring with it.
2. Killing Holtz family. Essentially he and Darla destroyed a good man.
3. Happily gives up Darla and the others to Holtz so he doesn't have to suffer needlessly.
4. It's not enough for Angelus to simply kill maid Margaret he has to go for the taunt first (unfortunately that predilection is going to lead to his downfall when fighting Buffy)
5.Drusilla. Probably his best work of art. "Killing is so merciful in the end, the pain has ended."
6. Tries to kill Buffy's friends so it will hurt her. Although he says its a good tactic and he's right, Dru understands the real motivation behind Angelus' actions
"You don't want to kill her, want to hurt her like me."
7. Angelus tortures Jenny, Giles and emotionally tortures Spike, Buffy, Willow and Xander.
8. I think Angelus wanted to destroy the world as a ultimate act of contempt for good and of course Buffy. She saves the world, a lot and Angelus wants to corrupt that.
9. Is an absolute git to Wes, Cordy, Connor, Gunn and Fred.
10. Beats the ever holy crap out of Faith, meanwhile trying manipulate her. He undermines her redemption saying that she is not giving in to her true nature and as a parallel, Angel isn't the real him, the soul forces him to be something that isn't really him.

Angelus and Spike

Angelus tortures Spike because he knows he can. Spike is emotional and sentimental, much like Buffy. If you've got feelings, Angelus will hurt them.

Angelus enjoys the methodical destruction of a human being. I always feel that Angelus wasn't as good as he could have been in Season 4 because he doesn't work well in chaotic environments. He likes to be in control. This most likely explains why Angelus has rarely faced Slayers or stayed away from angry mobs, he likes an environment where he is in control.

Spike: Don't you ever get tired of fights you know you're gonna win?
Angelus: Of course not. A real kill. A good kill. It takes pure artistry. Without that, we're just animals.

[jeanvic]

That may be, Kana, but Angelus has shown that he can stand up to any opponent he faces. He has taken on both Buffy and Faith and dominated them (without vamping I might add) and Angel has taken on enemies far stronger than slayers and dominated, sometimes even winning.

The difference is he looks at life differently. He likes the artistic side of life, not the rush or the chaos. Look at the music for example. Spike likes loud, frantic rock like the Sex Pistols while Angel prefers classical. Spike likes videogames while Angel likes classic books.

The thing with Angelus in Season 4 was that he actually was in control. Her followed Jasmine's orders and played nice with The Beast but all along he had a plan in mind, a plan on how to destroy the beast and how to reveal Jasmine. So appearances of lack of control are just that, appearances. All along Angelus was in control of the situation. Another example of this, Season 5. All along the Senior Partners, Marcus Hamilton and The Circle all thought they had Angel under his thumb, yet in reality he was controlling them.

So yes, Angelus may like the battles he can win, but he won't shy away from those he would find more difficult. And even if they seem more difficult and insurmountable, he usually has something ready that brings the control back. All the while, Spike is still in the chaos and still under his enemies thumb.

[Kana]

Another thing about Angelus: leather pants.

Good thing?

Jean Vic you have PM

[Lexie]

Leather pants! I love you for mentioning that.

"I think I speak for everyone when I said if you're going to switch to brood mode we'd rather have you evil. Then, at least--leather pants"

I agree with all your Angelus highlights.

What I especially love about Angelus is it's all about the evil--it's an art to him. He doesn't just blindly kill. He also likes a challenge and, as jeanvic said, won't back down because it will be a difficult kill. That's an added thrill for him, I think. Kana's right, though, about him needing to be in control. He tried to send the world to Hell because he couldn't win aganist Buffy. I also love how even though he is a very strong and skilled opponent he frequently attacks emotions. He's a master at the physical and emotional. That's something we have not seen in any other Jossverse vamps--or vamps from other movies/shows. He's unique.

More Angelus favorites:
--Passion narrowed down: Killing Jenny and leaving her in Giles's bed. Watching from outside as Buffy and Willow get the news--his smirk showing how pleased it makes him. And, of course, his Passion speech. Okay, so that;s not really narrowed down
--At the end of IOHEFY, when he is freaking over feeling love
--Breaking Buffy's heart in Innocence

I haven't seen Angel Season 4 yet, so I bet a lot will be added.

Truthfully, it's hard for me to choose, I basically love every second he's onscreen

I have a question: if Angelus "loosing" wasn't imperative for the show, do you think he could beat Buffy? I give a definite YES

[Kana]

"I have a question: if Angelus "loosing" wasn't imperative for the show, do you think he could beat Buffy? I give a definite YES"

The issue is, that we have to legitimize what we see (well I do lol). That is to say if the person is beaten in what can be considered fair combat then we either have to accept that that the other person was better in that fight or there was a reason that the other person lost.

So could Angelus beat Buffy? Well unfortunately (for Angelus) he has a need to hurt his victims before killing them so that can be a huge disadvantage however Buffy's feelings for him may have served as an advantage to him, so maybe it evens that out. I'm not sure, in all fairness, maybe Angelus could have killed Buffy if he hadn't stood there for about half an hour taunting her but then if he didn't taunt her, he wouldn't be Angelus lol.

Oh, and you'll love Season 4 Lexie .

[Lexie]

If he aimed the sword a little differently he could have taken her out. Then she wouldn't have been able to stop it. And I agree, if he stopped taunting for a second it would have been over, but as you said, than he wouldn't be Angelus. And we wouldn't want that...especially me

[jeanvic]

Oh Lexie thank you for asking that.

Could Angelus beat Buffy? The simple answer is a hearty yes. Let's look at their fight. Buffy: Slayer. Angelus: Vampire. She should naturally be stronger meaning that Angelus would have to give his all. But, never in that fight did Angelus vamp out. Vamping out makes a vampire stronger and faster yet he didn't need it to dominate her. He only lost because of his arrogance.

Same with Faith. He fights her and dominates without vamping. Again he loses because of arrogance. And with Dana. He fights her and holds her so Wesley can shoot without vamping. Spike on the other hand, the slayer of slayers, needed to vamp to fight Buffy and Dana and he dominated neither of them. Oh and Angel dominated Spike in In the Dark without vamping. He just vamped because Spike drew blood.

So the answer Lexie is yes.

[Lexie]

I notice Angelus isn't big on vamping out unless his sole goal is to frighten, not fight. The only time I can remember off the top of my head of when he was fighting vamped out was in Killed By Death. It's probably an added thrill for him to take out an enemy while wearing his sexy human face.

[jeanvic]

Well vamping is like a vampire's hulk up. If he can dominate three slayers without it, what can he do with it? The answer. Faith couldn't hurt the Beast yet when Angel vamped out he was able to knock the beast to his knees.

[Kana]

Yeah I think fighting Buffy in his normal face was part of his psychological torment. If he vamped out then he's just another vampire but in his human face, it's like she's fighting Angel, so that's got to be torture. I think that was part of Joss' intention. Becoming had to be an emotional battle and to have Angelus fighting in human face made it more climatic. It's kind of like fighting your feelings for the man you love and it feels like the world is literally ending.

[Laura]

Yeah, I agree with Kana. Not only does fighting the man she loves torment Buffy, but it also triggers emotion in the audience. It ensures that the viewers never forget the face of Angel.

What I thought was so genius to Angel's character is how he is so patient. He doesn't just try to kill Buffy like Spike did, but he dragged it out- first targeting her emotions and then her friends and family. That's another reason why I loved him as a season villain.

What I'm wondering is since Angelus can remember everything about Buffy, do you think he can somehow remember the feelings Angel had for her?