Angel(us)

[Lexie]

It seems the thread on Angel vs Angelus is dead now and I was hit by inspiration and had to post this.

How different are Angel and Angelus? How fine is the line between the two? On the surface they seem like two completely different characters, but I think if you delve a little deeper they have many or all of the same qualities. Only difference would be when Angel has a soul he uses them for good and when he doesn't their used for evil

Are Angel and Angelus really the same person-vampire- just with a soul and without? Is the evil, soulless side of Angel just underneath the surface? How much control does Angel need to tame his natural vampiric tendancies? We've seem him slip several times.

I think a big part of the "seperation" between the two is that Angel's friends seperate them basically to make them feel better--make them ignore the fact that he is a vampire and it's in his TRUE nature to kill them all. In fact, I think the only time it's acknowleged (at least by his friends) is at the end of Eternity.

Thoughts? Agree? Disagree?

[Kana]

Ok like I've said, there are several theories for this. One thing I will say is that I believe that there are any metaphysical differences between Angel and Spike apart from the happiness clause and the fact that Angel was cursed with a soul and Spike asked for his soul back.

Theory 1

When some one is turned into a vampire their soul which is the immaterial part of the person which houses their memories, consciousness and is effectively the 'meness' of a person is gone and a demon takes over their body and gets their memories. This would mean that Angelus is the demon with Liam's memories and also wearing his face but it's not him. When Angelus was re ensoulled Liam was forced back from the ether and was cursed to remember everything his demon counterpart did as if he did them himself. This theory is supported by Jasmine and the Watcher's Council and to an extent by Angel.

Theory 2

In this model when Liam was turned his conscience was removed but his consciousness and pretty much everything else remained. His physiology was changed but effectively it was still Liam: now with rhe physiology of a demon and lacking a conscience or the ability to feel guilty for his actions if you will. When Angelus was re ensoulled then he was given his conscience back and therefore looked upon his past actions with remorse. This is supported by Living Conditions (it seems more likely that Kathy was stealing Buffy's conscience rather than her 'meness') and I've Got You Under My Skin where Ryan has intelligence, memories and consciousness but no 'soul' but he clearly has a life force with no demon residing inside (apart from the ethros who didn't cause him to commit the atrocities he did) so he simply lacks a conscience.

Seen as there is support for both theories, and considering Angel's stance is a little inconsistent, I'd say that either could be accepted.

[Lexie]

I feel kind of like a scolded child now.

I guess I shouldn't have posted it. Compared to Kana, I look kind of stupid.

I thought we could have discussion, we all know how much I love him, but Kana's post always seem to me like the set in stone type of thing...oh well

[Kana]

Oh, no no no no no no. I didn't mean to do that . It's still open to debate, especially in terms of which theories (mine or ones others have come up with) you agree with. Oh god I feel bad now.

[jeanvic]

Well, as much as I like Kana, this is the one issue we disagree on. I am a staunch believer in Theory 1. I see no resemblance between Angel and Angelus except Angel does have the same urges. But like I have said, the personality is completely different and there is genuine hate of the alter ego. Plus, it has been said in the shows that they are separate.

I do believe that not everyone is the same however. I believe some souls adhere to Theory 2, some to Theory 1. I think Spike follows Theory 2 and I think Darla follows Theory 2.

This leads on to something else I have considered. Could the nature of reensoulment caused the problem? Angel's was put back to make him suffer so both Liam and Angelus suffer.

[Kana]

Well I'm not sure really. I think Angel confuses the matter somewhat. If Angelus and Angel are quantitively different and Angel knows it then Angel is being kind of masochistic by saying "I should feel guilty for everything HE did". Although I wouldn't judge Angel based upon his unsoulled deeds either way, it makes more sense that if he seeking redemption then it was, quantitively speaking, Angel who did all those horrible things like murdering Jenny etc, he just did it without the constraints of a conscience.

Borrowed from Masq's site there are several theories based upon the whole Angel and Angelus debate.

Conner believed (or wanted to believe) that Angelus is the real person and the soul is nothing more than an emotional 'chip' as it were kind of like Spike's behavioural modification but instead of physical pain, he gets zapped with the guilties. Unlike Spike though, he most likely gets an emotional rewards when he does something right (by human standards).

Jasmine(As Cordy) said that Angelus is the disease. This is more akin to theory one that Angel is the Liamsoul and Angelus is the 'curse' he was given unduly and he is working to get rid of him as Angelus is the vamp copy if you will of Liam but it's not him.

The third theory is my favourite because it shows how complex Angel is. It's that Angel and Angelus are the same person but with the soul (conscience) bringing out different qualities. What some die hard Angel defenders forget is that Angelus has to come from somewhere. The demon in its purest form is like the Vantel we see in Pylea, which acts purely on instinct but that's not the Angelus we've come to know and loathe(love?). Angelus is very intelligent, deliberate and artful, nothing like the demon we see in Pylea, so where does Angelus get this from? Well as Darla said, Liam. Liam informs Angel and in turn informs Angelus so these are all part of Liam's potential. Like it or lump it the only way Angelus can manifest in due to something innate inside Liam which has to be by definition inside Angel. The only reason it seems seperate is because Angel surpresses that part of him. Remember brain is the same (as Angelus says) so all the dark imagination is still inside Angel, he just isn't vocal about it.

Also this isn't contradicted by Orpheus. Angel is present and he and Angelus appear to hate one another but, guess what? Angel ain't even there, he's still in the ether or the muo ping at the start of Angel's interaction, so technically this is still Angelus' mind. So mabye all the qualities of Angel still reside in Angelus mind.

All in all, the soul has to be one or the other in the case of vampires for the sake of consistency. Whatever was removed from William upon turning, was removed from Liam and whatever was returned was indeed returned to both of them. Why should it be different? Although their re ensoulments were different their turning were not. Why should Angel be special? I'm not sure what the soul is in terms of the Verse but I'm pretty adamant that the difference between Angel and Spike are not metaphysical but psychological. Like I said, if Angel truly believed he was seperate then he'd be an idiot to feel guilty for his unsoulled counterpart's actions.

Also, how seperate are Angel and Angelus?

*Angelus torments Buffy but as Willow observes, she is still the only thing he thinks about.

*Angelus and Liam have the same Daddy issues.

*In NFA, Players and Damage, Angel is cunning and methodical and thinking a few steps ahead of everyone else. Sound familiar, Angelus?

*Angelus has a thing for nuns and convents but Angel expresses the same thing in Sleep Tight and Dear Boy(?)

*Darla influences Angel psychologically like she did when he was without his soul. She brings out the inner struggle forcing us to reconsider whether Angel's dark side is simply limited to his bloodlust.

*Angel is 'deeply ambivalent', perhaps his hatred of Angelus is actually self hatred, hatred of the darker elements of his persona and Angelus rage against Angel is part of the fact that deep down a part of him wants that purity that 'clarity of evil' he talked about in Blind Date.

Sorry for the ramble but Angel is my fave characters and he is a lot more complex than people think, which is part of his lure as far as I'm concerned. If Angel was simply a simpering white hat, I'd be bored with him.

[Laura]

Those are valid points, but I have another theory which my sister found somewhere, and we both agree that it may be the case:

She read that when a vampires soul is returned, its not their original soul. Which, would seem like the case with Angel because with a soul, he was broody, yet Liam never acted that way at all. Liam was a drunk, idiot mostly, and I don't think getting turned into a vampire would change that. I believe Angelus is the demon taking over shop, yet Angel is the vampire he became, with a soul from somebody else.

I am not quite sure if that makes sense, I tried my best to explain .

[Glenn]

Yeah but that depends on what you believe the soul to be. The soul doesn't hold your personality, it gives you a moral compass. We never saw what Liam was like when he wasn't drunk. How do you know that without alcohol he didn't brood a lot. Thats what alcohol does, it brings you out of your shell. You cant just get anyones Soul. If your soul is you and that is what is sent to heaven for peace i don't think it makes sense that you can be ripped out of heaven to be put in the body of a vampire

[jeanvic]

Kana, you say Angel must be stupid if he feels he should feel bad for things he knows he hasn't done. The thing, he does think he has done them. He believes he is Angelus, not a separate entity. Cordelia, Wesley, Gunn, Fred, TPTB, TSP, Jasmine all see Angel as different to Angelus.

The Senior Partners know they are diferent because they want Angel dark, not evil. Wouldn't evil Angelus be better for their evil destroy the world plot? The Powers That Be see the difference like Cordelia says. The visions come for Angel, not Angelus.

Plus, Jasmine, A former PTB says that she will lock Angelus away inside Angel forever if he doesn't do as she says which is pretty clear evidence to me, evidence that others seem to negotiate because they don't like it.

And like I have said a million times before, why would Angelus help people, something he truly hates, juts because he has a conscience? Kana, one of your favourite speeches is in Epiphany. If this speech about people suffering doesn't convince you then I don't know what will.
"I don't think people should suffer the way they do."
Angelus revels in making people suffer and I doubt this attitude would be determined by a conscience.

And I wholeheartedly agree that vampires are determined by their former lives but I think the life is an imprint. Children are imprinted by their parents and their behaviour influences the child. IMO, Angelus is a demon created from the outline of Liam's past but I also think this of Angel. I think he is Liam with the outline of Angelus' past. It is a vicious circle and as separate as they are, they are always a part of each other because of memory. That is why I believe Angelus revels in hurting Angel's loved ones. He hates that 'his' body has been used to help people and love people, such as his friends, so he targets everything that grounds Angel to life.

Oh and about Angel not being there inside Angelus' mind. Like I say, Angel will always be there because of memory but nothing more. Never will Angelus consider doing good for a person because Angel is completely gone, aside from memory but what are we without memory? Angelus however, IMO, is never gone and is locked away inside Angel because it is Angelus' body. That is why I believe Angel has dark urges.

And that question, what are we without memory? That leads to another theory. Angel and Angelus may be two separate minds and they may be separate by metaphysics, as I believe, but are they one through memory? Do the memories of that body make them one on a different level while they are indeed separate? I would say this is my theory. Separate but one all at the same time. Look at Water, Ice and Steam. They are all one but they are also separate.

[Laura]

nopowerintheverse said:

Yeah but that depends on what you believe the soul to be. The soul doesn't hold your personality, it gives you a moral compass. We never saw what Liam was like when he wasn't drunk. How do you know that without alcohol he didn't brood a lot. Thats what alcohol does, it brings you out of your shell. You cant just get anyones Soul. If your soul is you and that is what is sent to heaven for peace i don't think it makes sense that you can be ripped out of heaven to be put in the body of a vampire

Well, what about Angel's soul? If you believe that, then that would mean Angel's soul which went somewhere would be ripped out to go into his body when he got cursed. How is it fair that way, but not with someone else?

[Glenn]

You and your soul are connected. Look how different Spike is from William but the demon tells him that he will return "his" soul also its like saying that the soul that repossessed Buffy was just some other persons random soul.

It wasnt fair for Liam that his soul would retun to the body of Angelus but it also wasnt fair that Buffys soul was ripped out of heaven to return to her body but it still was. Anyway like i said, it depends what you view as a soul. If you believe in life after death then the soul must have a conscience of its own, if you dont then a soul is merely a moral compass and it doesnt matter what soul you get because its just something that gives you guilt.

Buffyverse clearly shows that the soul has a conscience of its own as Buffy remembers the afterlife as she says she felt happy there.

[Laura]

Hm, true. It was just a theory .

I would still say Angel and Angelus are different. I don't believe a soul is the only thing that differs the two. Angelus is evil. Angel could still be evil, considering there are humans who kill with a soul. Plus, Spike was never exactly perfect when he had one. We all know Angel wasn't perfect, but he hardly ever killed someone for pure enjoyment like Angelus.

[Glenn]

Its not just the case of losing a soul that happened to Liam and William. They were no longer human. The soul or lack of doesn't determine a human. We see the human boy Ryan in "Under Your Skin" on Angel. He has no soul but also no real desire to hunt and kill people. He tried to kill his sister because she had more marshmallows than him. I don't think he did it for pleasure or enjoyment, look at his face when he is doing it. Its just another thing to do in his eyes. As a vampire you are also given blood lust, a desire to kill which isn't just down to no soul

[Laura]

Are you talking about Angelus? He found killing an art! Remember in "Amends" one of his victims talks about how he arranged his children to look alive. Who else would do that, but someone who finds it an art?

And, Angel who was still a vampire had a blood lust, yet he did not feed much with a soul. He was more like a man, and that is one of the clear reasons on why I would separate Angelus and Angel.

[Glenn]

I know he found killing an art, not sure where i disagreed with that lol

Angel may have had a soul but he was still a vampire and his blood lust has shown on a few occasions. When he was close to a bleeding Joyce, when he fed off of Buffy, in "City Of" when he saw the cut on the girls head and had to run away and again when he was drinking blood mixed with Conner's blood. The soul stopped him from committing evil because it made him feel guilt. His soul couldn't handle committing such murders, other people's souls don't stop them in such a way.

[Laura]

Lol, I don't know if you disagreed, but you said he took no pleasure in it.

And I am aware Angel has the blood lust, but he hardly ever acts on it. Angelus always acted on it. They were different. I always thought of it as Angelus being the demon taking up shot, like Buffy said once.

[Glenn]

I was talking about the boy Ryan.

Angel doesnt act upon it because of the soul. We have seen him do some crazy stuff even with the soul (pillow down the throat anyone ) The soul is the only thing that seperates Angel and Angelus for me but not the only thing that seperates Liam from Angelus

[Laura]

lol, oh, I didn't get that .


And I want to say there is something more that separates them, but it may just be the soul. I also agree that Angelus and Liam are very different, not just because of the soul.

[Lexie]

Bah. Because Kax wouldn't sign me on for DAYS for some reason I couldn't respond until now.

Out of everything I mostly agree with the third theory in Kana's third post. I really think the two aren't really, well--two. I don't think they're seperate. Kind of two versions of the same person--one with a soul, one without. Angel still has all those dark urges, he just surpresses them when he is in possession of his soul. (Kind of brings a whole new spin to the brooding--he's not only feeling guilt for his past, but for the present as well.) Angelus feels no need to surpress these dark urges.

As I've said before, the qualities are mostly the same too, just used in different ways.

I don't think I have to go in to examples of how not seperate they are because I think Kana covered that pretty well. One thing I'd like to add is--do you ever notice how at home Angel feels when he is in a postion of power? When he lacks a soul, power over others is a main focus.

I don't think Angel started to seperate himself and Angelus until those around him did. His friends insist that the two are seperate, they're nothing alike, but as I said before I think it was to make them feel better. Angel played along to the point where he almost believed it too

I will probably add more more soon...

EDIT: Thought of something else just now--ever notice that several times Angel has introduced himself as Angelus?

[Kana]

Ok my computer playing up has led to my intermittent use of the forum ARGHHHH!

Right to address some point quickly:

In terms of what the Senior Partners and The PTBS think, it's unclear. Cordy says that the vision came for Angel not Angelus yet that is her opinion. Jasmine was indeed a former PTB, yet she was also a lying manipulator and cannot speak for the rest of the powers.

Now Jean Vic mentioned my fave speech in Epiphany. Well the idea that a someone like Angelus can become a hero with a presence of a conscience is totally acceptable. Darla was one of the worst vampires yet Conner's conscience turned her into a self sacrificing hero who looked upon her past with disdain. Sound familiar? I agree that Angelus wouldn't help anyone but that's because (under the 2nd theory) he has no conscience. Even with a conscience Angel has done things that he wished he could take back.

In any respect the memory theory is interesting JV because if Angelus shares some of the same feelings and memories, isn't that partly what makes a person as Darla said?

I can accept both theories but even if they quantitively different (as opposed to different states of the same person) one has to admit that the demon would have used Liam as a template. Just as Spike is a romantic at heart or Harmony is well Harmony. Although their intent is vastly different (common for the human-vamp cross over) there are similarities as I stated above.