jeanvic
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Dec 30, 2006 11:14:25 GMT 10
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Post by jeanvic on May 4, 2007 11:03:10 GMT 10
I think he remembers them but it sickens him to think that his body had love insdie it. (Watch in I Only Have Eyes For You to see what he thinks of that.) He turns the love Angel had for her and vice versa and uses it to torment. By using Angel's love as a weapon he is practically destroying everything they were and had.
And yes I agree that he fought in human face to torment her but I still think it was a great achievement for him considering much stronger vampires had needed to vamp out, such as Luke and Darla.
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Post by Laura on May 6, 2007 7:14:44 GMT 10
Yeah, that question was because of I Only Have Eyes For You, because of the way reacted after they kissed, I thought maybe he had remembered the love Angel felt for her.
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Post by Kana on May 6, 2007 7:40:39 GMT 10
I think he does. This is consistent with the picture (I'm not sure if I painted that picture here) of Angel(us) as a purist. As a champion he feels super guilty and hates moral ambiguity (Belonging, Soul Purpose) and as an evil vamp he can't even love or believe/admit that he can love, see? Purist. He even says he's been violated. If he feels nothing then it's not a problem so in my eyes he feels something but he feels it's 'wrong' or antithetical to evil. Just as Angel has certain urges but feels it's wrong on acount of his his conscience.
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Post by Laura on May 6, 2007 9:36:28 GMT 10
Yeah, that makes sense, Kana. I always assumed that was true since he seemed disgusted after kissing her, like he did feel something and he was repulsed because of it.
Although, sometimes Angel seems to lean toward his "Angelus" side, so whose to say that Angelus couldn't somehow lean toward his "Angel" side?
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jeanvic
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Post by jeanvic on May 6, 2007 10:48:46 GMT 10
But that doesn't work for two reasons:
1)Angel and Angelus are separate.
2)It wasn't Angelus feeling the love in IOHEFY, it was the student from years back. Angelus was disgusted because his body had been a vessel of love. As he saw that he and Angel were separate, he does not see Angel's love for Buffy as part of him whereas he was forced to feel that love in the reenactment of the murder. Does that make sense? I know what I wanted to say but it's a little jumbled.
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Post by Laura on May 8, 2007 9:14:21 GMT 10
Yeah, I think I gotcha  . The vessel for love idea makes sense, but does that mean he was disgusted because the love inside of him (which was fake) was directed toward Buffy, or just the fact that there was love inside of him? (Hope that makes sense ) |
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jeanvic
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Post by jeanvic on May 8, 2007 10:17:17 GMT 10
No I think he was disgusted because there was love inside him. It didn't have to be directed at anyone. Just knowing it was there and feeling it disgusts him. He knew Angel loved Buffy but he didn't so there was no problem. He was just going to make sure she suffered because of her feelings towards Angel. Same with Connor and Cordelia. He knows Angel loves them but he doesn't so again no problem. He will however try to make them suffer by using their love for Angel. That doesn't work on Connor so he uses Darla and Cordelia. Angelus is about using love to hurt people but he can't stand it being part of him, like it was in IOHEFY. Again, does that make sense? |
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Post by Beck on May 8, 2007 14:04:50 GMT 10
See I dont agree that Angelus and Angel are completely seperate, otherwise it is the same for other vampires (well, Spike, since no other vampire is souled) and we've seen clearly that Spike is still the same Spike. One rule can't apply to one and not the other in this case. Angel wants to believe they are entirely seperate, but they aren't.
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jeanvic
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Post by jeanvic on May 8, 2007 20:09:12 GMT 10
Angel doesn't believe they are entirely separate, but the evidence is that they are. Watch Angel Season 4 for all the evidence that says they're separate. Jasmine says it and, if they aren't separate, why does Angel forget about the Beast when Angelus remembers him clearly?
And there could be reasons for Spike being the same old Spike after the soul. People have said that Spike retained parts of his humanity while Angelus didn't, hence the judge touching him but not burning him.
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Post by Laura on May 10, 2007 8:29:41 GMT 10
Yeah, I get what you're saying about how he felt with love inside of him, jeanvic . I honestly don't know if Angelus or Angel are separate or not. My opinion changes, since, as I said, sometimes Angel seems to show characteristics of Angelus or vice-versa, but most of the time they seem so different. |
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Post by Beck on May 10, 2007 13:47:38 GMT 10
Angel doesn't believe they are entirely separate, but the evidence is that they are. Watch Angel Season 4 for all the evidence that says they're separate. Jasmine says it and, if they aren't separate, why does Angel forget about the Beast when Angelus remembers him clearly? I still have a problem with that, Angel should remember it. I do not believe they are seperate, everything else shown on either show aside from that season (including the issue with Spike) proves that Angel and Angelus are not seperate. That arc in season 4 goes against everything else thats previously been shown in the series. I believe Angelus likes to think they are seperate, but I don't think they are. What is said in ONE season arc can't undo what is shown at all other times for me. Yes.... so? There is NO reason it should be different imo. Spike retained some humanity as do most vampires. Angelus didn't but perhaps thats because Liam had less humanity to begin with :dunno: Spike retaining some humanity doesn't mean he is the same person with a soul, if Angelus isn't. All that would mean is that Spikes demon has more humanity than Angel's. They are either both seperate, or neither are. |
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Post by Kana on May 11, 2007 1:13:27 GMT 10
Like said to JV in PM, the mind wipe creates a myriad of problems. One minute they Angelus is always there then they say his mind wasn't there at the time of the spell even though it's supposed to fully conscious and aware the whole time. I wont go into the details but it's no more rediculous the say that he is same person only fragmented.
Outside the show they kind of goofed it a bit because Season 1 really blurs them. It's not him yet he's got things to make up for. Angel's record is spotty at best. Angel said he doesn't feel guilty for anything Angelus done in Season 4 yet he's on the road to redemption. If we are to believe Angel in season 4 then Spike was right and Angel should let it go.
Yeah, I agree, apart from Liam having less humanity but wont go into that now. Ugh, I hate the idea of Spike or Angel(us) being special or something. Every vampire individual is different in responds to the 'clarity of evil' in a different way. So it's not a huge assumption to make to say that every vampire would react different to re ensoulment.
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Spike retaining some humanity doesn't mean he is the same person with a soul, if Angelus isn't. All that would mean is that Spikes demon has more humanity than Angel's. They are either both seperate, or neither are.