The bias of Spike!?

[jeanvic]

Now, I am have been watching the Buffyverse since I was ten. I am a huge fan and I love my DVD box sets.

In all my years though, never have I seen such a phenomenon as the universal bias towards Spike. Now, this gets to me. In the early years, evryone loved Angel, B/A and other characters. Now all of a sudden, everyone loves Spike and S/B. My question is: Why? I have watched all seven seasons of Buffy and all five of Angel and I am yet to see why Spike is considered the best character and Spuffy the best ship when there are characters such as, Angel, Cordelia, Lorne, Wesley, Willow, Giles etc and shps such as B/A, C/A, F/W etc.

I go on Voote.com and on all the polls this is what I see:
The best character on Buffy?
Spike.(In comparison to Willow, Buffy, Cordelia, Oz)
The hottest male actor on Buffy?
James Marsters.(In comparison to DB)
The best ship?
B/S.(In comparison to B/A)

I can't tell you how happy I was that the hottest male on Angel was David Boreanaz and the best ship was C/A.

So please, tell me, why is Spike so well loved? As much as I like him, I just can't see the appeal he has. He is said to be the most developed character when that award has to go to Wesley, Cordelia or Angel. On sites JM is said to be the best actor and this is in comparison to DB, ASH, AD, JAR. Where is it coming from?

Please, lovely KAX members. tell me why JM and Spike is held so highly above all others.

[Kana]

I think Spike is popular because he has elements of character to which many people respond. He's extroverted and most people like that because a) they may be that way themselves (identification) or b) it satifies a wish fulfilment among the more reserved.

Also Spike is representive of the fun rebel which would appeal to a lot of people. He's contemporary, engaging and humorous which tends to be more popular.

Spuffy is liked for a variety of reasons. For one, if Spike is popular character and presumably, so is Buffy, then it perhaps is considered exciting. Although they were enemies a lot of fans noticed or believed there was a vibe between the two, with spectators hanging on words as early as season 2 with Spike's "Hello cutey". The writers then made a retrospective legitimacy to this uncertain claim with Spike and Dru's exchange in Fool For Love. When they finally got together, a lot of fans commented on the sexual chemistry of the pair.

Other fans consider it a romance that defies convention, spreading a light into the darkened halls of the illicit, connecting either through experience or through wish fulfillment, wishing too, to free themselves of the shackles of rigid sexual morality.

We've talked about Spike's personal appeal but what also makes Spike interesting for many is that he is a bigger case of moral ambiguity than most, including Angel. A vampire with a soul is interesting but a vampire voluntarily getting a soul is baffling. Spike indeed promotes many debates about ambiguous intentions and making a case for a moral relativism, furthering interest in the character.

Ok lastly, James Marsters is considered good looking by many people. Is it the hair, the jawline, the abs? I don't know but he seems to do it for a lot of people.

All in all, the reasons for Spike's popularity are numorous and I'm sure there are many reasons I haven't mentioned. For many it's his looks, for some it's his sense of humour. I come across many fans of Spike who simply say, "I love him, he's so sexy" and I've also seen fans who appreciate Spike from an academic and literary perspective.

Does this mean he is a better character? To me that would akin to saying something like "purple is objectively the best colour". People like whoever they like, they have their reasons, I guess.

[Nico]

Spike isnt my favourite character (Giles is) but I think he is definetly the most developed..in Buffy atleast, and most people who like Spike Loved him from Season 2, and disliked his character when he was *whipped* then loved him again when he was back to his old self.

When Spike came into BTVS, I breathed a sigh of relief, Angel was so damn Boring, Brooding almost every episode, Giles was and is my favourite character, Spike was new, and with a new character, possibilities are endless.

Why do I like Spuffy? Because after Bangel (First Love) Scott (Boring) Parker (Loser) Ruffy ( Yawn) Spike was the first person who (like Kana said) that I saw chemistry with, not the chemistry she had with angel, she was only a kid then, but sexual tension, and that was hot, and thats what buffy needed.

I also agree that James Marsters is better looking than David Boreanez, No contest, DB is more of a catalogue cutout, JM is rugged

[Beck]

Spike is my favourite character because he's the most interesting to me. He changes so much throughout the series and he was fascinating to me. I am not however one of those Spike fans that forgives his every mistake. Spuffy is well loved because it was entertaining, and the characters had brilliant chemistry. Bangel to me had chemistry yes, but the corniness ruins it for me. And also the "true love" claims bug me.

James is hotter than David to me too. I am not a big fan of the clean cut talk dark and handsome stereotype DB fits in so well. Spike is more unusual looking, and OMG those cheekbones and the head tilt... yep.

[Casi]

Oh Jean-vic, I knew you'd liven up this section!!

Why Skitty is a Spike girl:

He's imperfect. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think any of the other characters are perfect, but Spike is the first one is put forth as a truly horrible person with the potential to be redeemed. We get that in sparing doses with Angel as we learn about Angelus through season one, but it's not exactly the same. Angel is put on this higher standard because he is see as a type of ultimate good as far as the Buffyverse is concerned. He is the proverbial white knight. Spike is anything but.

Now, let me state for the record that even though I'm a Spike girl, I don't think Spuffy was the best relationship on the show. I don't have a favorite relationship because I think they were all incredibly important and that in order for the characters to develope as they did, they needed each of those other people to further their own development as people.

But back to Spike's imperfection. I think it's a big deal that he has so much wrong with him because it makes him a more relatable character. Women love him, I think, because he is the bad boy that gets redeemed by love and I think, deep down, that's something that all women feel to a certain degree, though we rarely act on it, and often it's very subconscious. But it is a phenominon that cannot be denied. What's more, he's the most humanized character we see because he is the first to be brought to rock bottom (when he got chipped). We soon see Willow go through a similar slide, and I think it was just as important for her. But I'm getting off track. The important thing to note is that, of all the characters in the buffyverse, Spike is the only 100% evil creature that makes an effort to better himself, without the benefit of the soul. This blending of the jossverse rules are what make him an intriguing character to me.

As to his sex appeal...it just goes down to taste in the end. I like James better than David for no other reason than that I find David to be large and bulky. He's attractive, but I prefer slim, lean men, and therefore chose James. It's a personal preference based on my overall taste in men, not a slight on David.

[jeanvic]

Fair enough, all very good answers but I still fail to see the appeal that Spike has. I fail to see how Spike was the most developed chracter becase he went from the arrogant cockney evil vamp to the arrogant cockney souled vamp. Compare this to Cordelia who went from uber bitch to selfless champion. Wesley wnt from stiff upper lip Brit to rugged, tough englishman who personifies the British nation. Angel goes from the guy who broods and follows Buffy around to champion of the world, destroying the ultimate evil at the end. In comparison to these, and others, Spike is one of the least developed in my eyes.

In terms of good looking, I've never seen JM on top 100 sexiest men list. lol. Don't get me wrong, he's a good looking guy but he wasn't the vampire witht eh face of an Angel was he? lol.

As for best actor, Spike has had one side all through. Arrogant cockney. DB, AD, ASH etc had different sides to their characers and they played the all brilliantly. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who can bring Angelus' evil across without the script is a damn fine actor and better than any on the show.

As for Spuffy, I hate it. Violent relationships annoy me beyond belief.

The final thing that annoys me about Spike is, everything is forgiven. As soon as he got a soul everyone was saying that he should shanshu. What about Angel who has don far much more than Spike? Oh no, Angel can't shanshu because he was so evil as Angelus. Yeah, okay but that wasn't him!! Spike unsouled was Spike. Angel and Angelus are separate beings.

Anyway, rant over for now.

Skitty, glad to have made the site a bit more lively.

[Lexie]

I used to love Spike. Really, I did. Back in Season 2. The changes he went through were admirable and I have nothing aganist character development, but I simply don't like it.

First off, I don't think Spike originally stayed because he wanted to help. He stayed because it was the best place to be for him after he was chipped. Fighting evil with the Slayer gave him back the two things that he lacked: a sense of purpose and being feared.

Also, I find Spike to be incredibly dependent and after awhile it gets a little annoying. First there was Dru, he acted all love struck and would do anything for her--any of his "evil deeds" were done to make Dru happy. Then he's all shocked when Angel looses his soul and Dru goes crawling back into his bed (okay, so that's speculation, not fact, but it was highly insinuated) He helps Buffy in the end of Season 2 solely because it would benefit him. I don't want to hear any crap about him doing it for anyone else. Then, Dru breaks up with him, leaving him alone and unfocused. Then he gets chipped. Now a more independent vampire would find a way to deal with that. Instead Spike goes crawling to the Slayer, begging for help. Granted, it worked out for him. Then he latches on to Buffy and becomes dependent on her. Then he falls in love with her, has a violent affair with a screwed up Buffy in Season 6 and gets a soul! Ugh! Aside from the violent affair, its been there done that. There already is a vampire with a soul who loves Buffy, why do we need two? Everything that was brilliant about Angel's character (I don't mean Angel exactly, but more of what he is--a vampire with a soul) is totally cheapened by having a second vampire with a soul.

I won't get into my hatred over how Spike degraded Angel

Now I still like Spike. Don't get me wrong. He's funny and completely loyal to Buffy in Season 7, providing her with someone to lean on and someone to trust, which she needed. I actually think his dependency issues are rooted in the fact that he never really lost all of William. Even when he was unquestionably evil (meaning Season 2) he wanted to be accepted and loved. I can forgive the dependency a little for that reason, but it still bothers me. He does have a desire to do good and help others now that he has a soul and that's something in itself.

Spike, good character? Yes Best character? No

[jeanvic]

Best Character? Angel. lol.

I agree Lexie. He is a cheap knock off of Angel. Now, I think that Season 7 would have been better if Spike had been evil and unchipped. Think about it. He is a former Bang buddy of Buffy's and now he is back and worse than ever. It wiould have been a good storyline but no we get a second Vwas and a degradation of Angel's character.

[Casi]

Oh I completely disagree that he was a cheap knock off of Angel. For starters, let me reiterate that Spike is the first and only character on both shows to move from the side of evil to the side of good without the benefit of a human soul. That's a big deal, no matter how you slice it. Just imagine Angelus letting himself get beaten to a bloody pulp for the sake of a fourteen year old girl who you've only known for a little over two years. I see your point about other characters making drastic changes and huge growth and I agree it's worth merit. I'm not saying Spike's is more important than theirs, I'm just saying you have to look at it in context.

[Lexie]

I don't think he's a cheap knock off of Angel, but I do think Spike getting a soul ruined Angel's character and Spike spends way too much time degrading Angel.

[Casi]

I think getting a soul ruined Spike's character, too. I appreciate why he did it, but I hated that the writers took him there becuase I really believed it would have been a much better statement and fullfillment of his character if he had managed to become a good man without a soul.

[Bre]

jeanvic said:

As for best actor, Spike has had one side all through. Arrogant cockney.

What show have you been watching? Spike is not one-sided. He was arrogant at times, sure, but that's not all he was. He had sympathetic moments towards other characters. He went from having all of this power and then the chip was put in, and he didn't know what he was supposed to do. And this goes to anyone who thinks Spike was a shallow character, you obviously weren't seeing the Spike the writers intended to be seen, and that's a huge bummer for you.

[Beck]

I don't think getting his soul ruined Spike :dunno: I liked that as part of his journey. Spike was definitely not a one sided character. That notion is, quite frankly, without any merit at all. He changes a lot throughout the course of the show. He wasn't the only character to do so (Anya for instance I believe came full circle in the end with her growth), but he had many layers for each level of his development. Even evil SPike was multi-layered, he had that romantic aspect not shared by many (if any) other vampires, that great capacity for love. He was willing to make deals with the slayer to get Dru back, he didn't want the world to end like many demons. He liked being evil, but he wasn't simply about destruction and end of the world style evil. And for every change in Spike's situation, his chip, his soul, more layers of his personality are revealed. He's in no way a one dimensional character. He has many flaws, and many good traits.

[Nico]

ariensun said:

What show have you been watching? Spike is not one-sided. He was arrogant at times, sure, but that's not all he was. He had sympathetic moments towards other characters. He went from having all of this power and then the chip was put in, and he didn't know what he was supposed to do.

Exactly, and Thats why He made such a great chracter, You had no idea what he would do next, He was different from all the other vampires, and Like Beck said, His great capacity for Love, Look at the way he pined for Dru, went to willow and moaned to her about how much he loves her, and then tried to kill Willow.

Jeanvic you remind me of a guy from another buffy forum, you are the complete opposite, he is infactuated with spike, to the point of saying "It was Buffys fault" when talking about the attempted Rape.

Spike as completely different from Angel, Like Beck said, Spike never wanted to end the entire World, he just wanted to Hurt people, which made him happy. Angels character couldnt be ruined...after season 3 as far as I was concerned Angel had nothing to do with BTVS anymore.

[Loz]

jeanvic said:

Fair enough, all very good answers but I still fail to see the appeal that Spike has. I fail to see how Spike was the most developed chracter becase he went from the arrogant cockney evil vamp to the arrogant cockney souled vamp. Compare this to Cordelia who went from uber bitch to selfless champion. Wesley wnt from stiff upper lip Brit to rugged, tough englishman who personifies the British nation. Angel goes from the guy who broods and follows Buffy around to champion of the world, destroying the ultimate evil at the end. In comparison to these, and others, Spike is one of the least developed in my eyes.

Do you actually know what character development is?Character development is not about who changes the most - its about how much the audience gets to know the character. We get to know Spikes history, faults, strengths, weaknesses, the way he thinks, what he believes, what he loves... so i would say he is one of the most developed characters in the Buffy world.

In terms of good looking, I've never seen JM on top 100 sexiest men list. lol. Don't get me wrong, he's a good looking guy but he wasn't the vampire witht eh face of an Angel was he? lol.

He looks pretty damn good to me. Everyone likes different things and finds different things attractive. How boring would the world be if we didn't. I don't see this is something to bitch about frankly.

As for best actor, Spike has had one side all through. Arrogant cockney. DB, AD, ASH etc had different sides to their characers and they played the all brilliantly. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who can bring Angelus' evil across without the script is a damn fine actor and better than any on the show.

As Master Joss said James Marsters can turn on a dime. He is an effortless actor. You don't see him working. He is fabulous in my opinion. David does Angelus well but i'd never call him a brilliant actor. Ever.

As for Spuffy, I hate it. Violent relationships annoy me beyond belief.

Well to each their own. I find their chemistry tangible, electric and passionate. They are hot together. Simple as that.

[Lexie]

nico said:

Angels character couldnt be ruined...after season 3 as far as I was concerned Angel had nothing to do with BTVS anymore.

I don't think you understood what I meant. When I say Angel's character would be ruined I meant the uniqueness and originality of what he is--a vampire with a soul. That's a brillant idea and intriguing concept and I think having another vampire get a soul cheapens it. If it had never been done before it probably wouldn't bother me as much.

[buffymanic]

I don't believe that Spike having a soul damages Angels character in any way, in fact it give him a further dimension, it raises new issues about the prophacy and it forces Angel to look at the bigger picture.

Angel and Spike's personalities were completely different and as such the way in which they dealt with their soul's were totally different. Angel chooses to dwell on all things that he has done, he feels the weight of his soul more to me this makes him a more mature character. Spike on the other hand recognises his faults and moves on sometimes he does the right thing for everybody and sometimes he's selfish and immature. So to its impossible to say that by spike having a soul it takes anything away from Angel.

On the issue of hotness and acting ability I have to say I much prefer David. I recognise the appeal of James but my subjective choice will always be David. He may not be the best actor in the world be he clearly has recogniseable talents otherwise he wouldn't have had his own show or the lead in Bones

[Glenn]

Bias of any character annoys me. When people start pulling things out of their arse to give characters credit for i get quite worked up. I think it just seems to happen more with Spike because he is probably the most popular character and you can hear some right nonsense from people defending him

JM is a great actor, i thing DB is better but thats just me.

[buffymanic]

nopowerintheverse said:

you can hear some right nonsense from people defending him

like Spikeraw

I new Spike was a very popular character but I've never noticed that he was everybody's fav. I think a lot of people fall in love with the bad boy persona

[Beck]

DB is not a great actor, he improved and was good as Angelus but mostly he was wooden as Angel for the first 2 seasons. Even in Bones or any of his movies, he's not very good