Spuffy and Cangel

[Beck]

Well the Cangel thread has verged on comparisons of late, so I thought I'd start a thread about it. Now it seems to me that a lot of diehard Bangel fans are against both Spuffy and Cangel (I'm not saying all, I'm saying a lot). The reason for that seems to be because Buffy should be with Angel and neither should be with anyone else :dunno: I've also head arguments that Angel shouldn't be with Cordy because of the reasons he left Buffy. Not the same imo, but I've heard that argument. Of course, there are other reasons for disliking either ship.

Cangel and Spuffy have some similarities. They were both based on trust, frienship and loyalty (season 7 Spuffy I am talking about, not before that). Do you compare the two as similar? Like one but not the other? Or hate both?

[Allan]

I like the Buffy/Spike pairing far more than Angel/Cordy. Buffy used Spike, Spike took things way too far... And then he went out and found himself a soul, an excercise that proved fruitless, no matter how he felt.

Angel and Cordy was too much "I love you, we should be together", and has nowhere near the depth of Buffy and Spike.

[Shaun]

There was a lot more to Cordy and Angel than that. It had as much depth as Spike and Buffy beating the shit out of each other and being involved in an abusive relationship. If it was as simple as "I love you, we should be together" they would have been. As it was they never had the chance because of other complications. They had a strong friendship that built up into love over the years they spent fighting together.

[Allan]

Spike and Buffy felt a lot more realistic* to me than Cordy and Angel. I could believe that through the circumstances they got together, which is far more than I ever did with Cordy and Angel.

*Yes, I understand that the idea of vampirea having relationships with slayers, girls with visions, whatever, is stretching the boundaries of "realistic".

[Shaun]

I still don't understand how Cordy and Angel falling in love was any more unrealistic on the shows than Buffy sleeping with a vampire she hated. What exactly was so unrealistic about the circumstances in which they fell in love? That they didn't initially like each other very much? Buffy hated Spike but grew to like him after spending time together, how is that different?

[Allan]

"Realistic" is probably the wrong word, but to me, it just didn't just feel natural between the two.

Part of it could be because of Cordy's development, and she seemed to go from 18 to 30 in two years, without being locked in a Hell dimension like Conner...

[Shaun]

You don't think that after all she had been through Cordelia growing up fast was natural?

[Allan]

Not the rate she grew up as.

It reeked more of Angel having an older cast, so Cordy had better act older to fit in more than a natural progression.

[buffymanic]

yeh but if you hang out with older responsible people all the time it tends to have a good effect on you, it matures you. Plus once Cordy was given the visions and saw first hand all the pain in the world she was forced to mature and realise that some things in life are more important.

[Allan]

It's not just the responsibility, though. Her entire personality and demeanor took a sudden turn - to me, it was a lot more than a more mature outlook on life.

[Shaun]

Her entire personality and demeanor did not change. She was bitchy back at the start but still showed a willingness to help others. She lost a lot of her bitchiness through things that happened to her, still had it right up until Birthday when she made the final choice to help Angel and not ever go back to the way she was. It wasn't sudden, it happened over a few years, and in those years she went through a hell of a lot and matured quickly. There was no sudden turn in her character.

[Beck]

I don't think that she grew up too fast either :dunno: But that topic can be continued in the Cordelia Evolution thread

I actually felt the relationship that developed between Cordelia and Angel was very natural and their strong friendship was something I loved. I was very iffy on it when they started to fall in love because of how much I loved them as friends. But I do think that it was a natural progression for them, working so closely together, even treating Conner as if he was almost both of theirs, and it would have been interesting to see how it went had Jasmine not interfered.

That said, it doesn't come close to Spuffy. Lust, passion, excitement. Then it drifted more towards what Cangel had in season 7 and was sweet too. But while Cangel is sweet and based on friendship, confidance, love and trust, Spuffy was intense. I don't think Cangel was ever intense - it could have grown to be, but it didn't have the chance.

[shred]

I prefer Spuffy over Cangel. Cangel just rubs me the wrong way.

I could see how Buffy could learn to love Spike over time but I can't see it happening between Angel and Cordelia. I just didn't think it was natural for Angel to fall for Cordelia or for Cordelia to fall for Angel.

[Kana]

I'll just post what I posted elsewhere.



"The parallels between Angel and Cordelia’s and that of Spike’s and Buffy’s are astounding. Both Angel Season 3 and Buffy Season 6 begin with the aftermath of Buffy’s death. The way both sets of characters deal with the news is key to how rest of the seasons play out. The Scoobies are obviously adversely affected as a group to much greater extent than the Angel Investigations group. The Scoobies at first seem united but the events of subsequent to Buffy’s resurrection serve to divide the group. Interestingly enough it was Scoobies who don’t fully move on at least not completely. Dawn attaches herself emotionally to the Buffybot and Willow comes up with the spell to literally bring Buffy back.

Angel initially isolates himself from the group after hearing about Buffy’s death. Angel actually manages to move on, accept Buffy’s death as a part of life. Meanwhile Darla is pregnant with Conner which serves to focus AI into a familial group.

Buffy confides in Spike who is the outsider about life after death but her association with the outsider pushes Buffy into the periphery of the group whereas Angel’s confidence in Cordelia solidifies the bond that Angel tried so hard to rebuild in the previous seasons. Cordy is an insider so although the conversation happens in private it still represents Angel’s confidence in his friends as a group.

Spuffy and Cangel?

We shall start with the obvious irony played out. Buffy starts her unhealthy sexual relationship with Spike born out of the feeling of isolation and a desire to feel something. Ironically the pair are blonde, fair and indulge in one of the darkest affairs on Buffy the show, whereas Angel and Cordy both brunette focuses on the foundation of stability. See the final scene in Provider. Angel and Cordelia’s familial bond is a stark contrast to the sexual relationship which leads to Buffy’s selfish self destruction.

Ahh but here’s the interesting part. Both Spike and Cordy are known for seeing things as they really are and not being afraid to tell others what they think. This is where the respective relationships take a turn. Cordy saw Angel in the harsh light of day and still fell in love with him. There was something so everyday about their relationship she didn’t just see Angel and Angelus, she saw the grumpy everyday Angel.

Angel: "That's really all I was trying to say, that we've been through so much together, you and me, as *friends.* You've seen the - good, - and the not so good."

Cordy: "Just like you have in me. And for the record: the good I've seen far outweighs the bad."

Angel after a beat: "Thanks. You, too."

And compare this to part of Spike’s speech.

Spike: I've seen the best and the worst of you. And I understand with perfect clarity exactly what you are. You're a hell of a woman. You're the one, Buffy.

Spike tends to see things as they are and I’d say he’s more down to earth than Angel. Both Spike and Cordy grew to love their beaus but with Angel and Buffy it was the more idealistic love at first sight that took place.

When Buffy and Angel fell for each other they hardly knew anything about each other whereas Spike and Cordy got to know them even when they were at their worst.

There is a strong point of contention that Angel and Buffy never really loved Spike and Cordelia but I prefer to look and the parallels between the relationship as they solidify the path that leads to growing up, not engaging in the ideal relationships and realising (to quote Wes) it’s not always about holding hands. This is completely the point with both couples in the Angel and Cordelia never enjoy the physical part of their relationship and Spike cannot touch Buffy emotionally (in season 6).

Both relationship force Buffy and Angel to realise what they want and what they don’t want. It forces them to grow up and see past simply romantic love and see wider circumstance that is required for their happiness."


EDIT: Also to add to Spuffy in Season 7, Buffy and Spike were not togther which Buffy expressly says to Angel in Chosen "He's not my boyfriend" but the connection they have is undeniable adding further to the 'not holding hands' thing.

[Shaun]

shred said:

I could see how Buffy could learn to love Spike over time but I can't see it happening between Angel and Cordelia. I just didn't think it was natural for Angel to fall for Cordelia or for Cordelia to fall for Angel.

Why was it so unnatural? Angel and Cordelia grew closer as friends over a long period of time, trusted each other, and eventually fell in love. It was a far more natural relationship than Spike and Buffy's, or Angel and Buffy's. Instead of Angel falling in love with a teenaged girl the second he saw her, he fell in love with someone who he had grown to value over anyone else around him. Even as early as season 2, it was Cordelia that Angel cared most about getting back onside after he had fired them all. A close friendship developing into love is not unnatural.

[jeanvic]

shaun said:

shred said:

I could see how Buffy could learn to love Spike over time but I can't see it happening between Angel and Cordelia. I just didn't think it was natural for Angel to fall for Cordelia or for Cordelia to fall for Angel.

Why was it so unnatural? Angel and Cordelia grew closer as friends over a long period of time, trusted each other, and eventually fell in love. It was a far more natural relationship than Spike and Buffy's, or Angel and Buffy's. Instead of Angel falling in love with a teenaged girl the second he saw her, he fell in love with someone who he had grown to value over anyone else around him. Even as early as season 2, it was Cordelia that Angel cared most about getting back onside after he had fired them all. A close friendship developing into love is not unnatural.

I completely agree. IMO, Angel and Cordelia was the most realistic in the verse. Two people grow to be best friends when the death of Doyle made them connect emotionally and eventually that grew into love. It actually happens a lot in the real world.

But there is an obvious bias I'm sorry to say. People may not like C/A and that is there prerogative, but to say that two hated enemies falling in love in the space of a year was relaitic for the show, given their hoistory, is actually quite offensive to me, and I assure to a lot of other Cangel fans. Angel and Cordelia developed over time and through circumstances that constantly pushed them together and made them come closer. That is not unrealistic. Falling in love with someone while having violent sex is unrealistic IMO.

Another thing I don't see is Cordelia's progression as being a bad thing. She was forced to feel the pain of the world every single day through her visions. Why is it s hard to see that she would grow from this? What I find strange is that one of the evillest vamps in history becomes noble hero of the people over the course of a season. He goes from wanting to kill and wanting his chip out to fighting for a soul. Unrealistic, but again people won't see that if it is their ship it happens in.

So I do see parrallels and I think if all was siad and done, Angel and Cordelia would be best togetehr as would Spike and Buffy. They both have bonds in their relationship that cannot be broken. It grew over time and they became closer and eventually lovers. If not for Spike's death I think he would have ended up with Bufy and if Jasmine had not interfered Cordelia and Angel would have been together.

And there can be as many disputes about who loved who as people want but fact is fact, Cordy and Angel loved each other as did Spike and Buffy.

[Beck]

I agree, I think thats who they would have ended up with and I also found Cordy and Angel's love developing to be natural. I dont think Buffy falling in love with Spike was unrealistic though, some people just enjoy violent sex and it doesnt take away from them loving each other. She developed feelings for him, and though it wasn't love then, she did care a lot for him. Thats why the attempted rape hurt her so badly, with most others Buffy would have kicked them off a lot sooner and they wouldnt have had the chance to get that close to try it. It was Spike season 7 that Buffy fell in love with.

[Dani]

I thought the Buffy/Spike pairing was good but the fact that Cordelia disappeared the same night she was to tell Angel she loved him really annoyed me, the fact that he would have been dating a half demon goddess wouldn't have been so bad. mean Cangel made me ill on some levels but then again I also wish they had never killed Doyle off.

[Shaun]

How did Cordy/Angel make you feel ill?

[Dani]

Not really sure just the fact that it took her like three to four years to finally realize she loved him.