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Post by James on Jun 28, 2006 9:22:12 GMT 10
it did backtrack a bit. he was not consistently written thru season 5, some time he was like he was in season 7 and other time he a hybrid of that character and souless spike. and spike connected with Dawn and Anya in the scoobies too,
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jeanvic
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Post by jeanvic on Jan 2, 2007 10:52:38 GMT 10
Was Spike ruined? No. IMO he wasn't ruined. I think he did ruined the show though. As far as I am concerned, Spike has no place on the show. He was a Buffy character, end of. He was brought in by the screw up Joss Whedon to get more ratings when all he needed to do was bring Cordelia back. She was a major cog in the Ats series and she was replaced by the uber-annoying blonde one, Spike.
Also, Lorne was pushed to the side for Spike. Lorne is ten times funnier thn Spike and he is a better character to watch. He's not just an arrogant cockney who hasn't changed in 6 years as opposed to everyone else.
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Post by Nico on Jan 2, 2007 10:58:06 GMT 10
Joss Whedon is not a Screwup!,
From the little angel I saw, I thought he made the episodes great, Angel/Spike interactions were brilliantly Written and Directed.
I agree with what James said, his chracters dialogue was changing between pre soul spike and the spike who connected with the scoobies, that would be my only Flaw.
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Post by Shaun on Jan 2, 2007 11:12:27 GMT 10
Where did I say that?  I agree he was inconsistent on Angel, but not just his dialogue. He didn't fit in there and had no real purpose on the show, other than to boost ratings. I agree with Jeanvic that he took over Lorne's role and pushed him into the background. Spike should have been left off the show. I didn't like much of the Spike/Angel interaction, he brought out Angel's childish side and brought down his character as well. And the rehashing of the Doyle/Angel Powers that Be's champion storyline with Spike and Lindsey was unnecessary. Lindsey could have been brought back in a better way. Spike's character was changed and not written the way he should have been if it was deemed necessary he cross over. They could have at least kept him consistent with his development. |
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Post by Nico on Jan 2, 2007 11:15:04 GMT 10
lol sorry, I meant James, have no idea why I said Shaun *edited*
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Post by Shaun on Jan 2, 2007 11:17:58 GMT 10
He steals all his ideas off me anyway  |
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Post by Nico on Jan 2, 2007 11:20:08 GMT 10
Exactly!, thats why I put Shaun instead of James, I totally meant it !  |
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Post by Beck on Jan 2, 2007 17:17:05 GMT 10
*cough* spammers *cough* I am a huge Spike fan and I HATED how he is portrayed in season 5 on Ats. I do like the Spike/Angel banter, my problem is the way he did revert back to season 4 Spike for parts of it and only around Fred did he show the Vamp he had become by the end of S7 BtVS. But Joss Whedon is God of TV-Land imo, not a screw up  |
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Post by shred on Jan 2, 2007 17:39:14 GMT 10
I'm not a Spike fan but I do feel that his character was ruin in Angel. Not only that but I thought bringing him over to the show cheapened his death in Chosen. His character was inconsistent and it felt like his character growth in season 7 went to waste as it was never continued in Angel. After watching season 5, I feel that Spike would have been better off dead. And I'm not saying this because I'm not a fan of Spike. |
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Post by Glenn on Jan 2, 2007 21:18:55 GMT 10
I have grown to tolerate Spike in season 5 simply because if i want any enjoyment out of the show i have to. Mostly i agree with Jeanvic and Shaun. He brought out the worst side of my favourite character with constant cock measuring contests which isnt what Angel was about. I liked Buffy season 4 Spike, but actually during season 4 of Buffy, NOT Angel season 5.
Lorne was such an integral part of the group during Angel season 4 yet all of a sudden he became a nobody with no real reason for being there just to accomodate a character who's course had been run.
Whedon is God, though his status is changeable with WonderWoman coming out.
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Post by Allan on Jan 2, 2007 22:14:06 GMT 10
Okay...
shred - Would you also say that Angel's death (or being sent to Hell) in Becoming was also cheapened by his return?
Everyone - As for Spike in Angel, I think it worked. I don't think the character changed, but it added a new dynamic between him and Angel. We've seen their constant bickering and contests when they were de-souled, and Why We Fight really demonstrated this. Yes, we also had the comedy relief, and also the cock fighting, but these are two characters who always had it in for each other.
And I personally found that one of Spike's all time greatest moments was in Damage, where he really came to terms with what he'd done in the past.
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Post by Glenn on Jan 2, 2007 23:14:46 GMT 10
Angel's wasnt a self sacrifice in Becoming so i dont think it is in the same vein.
There were a few moments that were nice but i still feel the bad out weighed the good. For example, The Girl In Question, Angel and Spike provide some good humour but it is an absolutely god awful episode. What with the "ive stopped more apocolypses than you" and the silly arguements it just got quite old and wore my nerves away.
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jeanvic
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Post by jeanvic on Jan 3, 2007 10:53:02 GMT 10
From what I have seen, Joss Whedon is very childish which is probably why he liked the Angel/Spike dynamic. Also, in later Seasons Joss lost what the early seasons had. He was no longer in it for the story. He was in it for the money and this is best shown by Spike coming back.
I like Spike but I thought his death in Chosen was the perfect end to his story. His sacrifice brought his growth to an end. There was nothing more to be done with him. This is I think was something that wasn't true of other characters that were pushed to the side. Cordelia had far more growth yet to do, as did Lorne. Wesley, one of the biggest growth characters was pushed aside just so Spike could get screen time. As I have said, Spike is a Buffy character, not an Angel.
Seriously, how would everyone feel if Buffy had gone to Ats? It is the same with Spike.
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Post by Glenn on Jan 3, 2007 11:07:27 GMT 10
This may sound mean but i got the feeling that Joss Whedon didnt care too much about Angel season 5. He only wrote 4 of the episodes. He had invested so much of his time into Firefly which got cancelled i think he was too tired and pissed to care too much. Bringing Spike to Ats was a quick fix, it was guarenteed to bring fans and make the tv bigwigs happy. So much time was wasted on Spike, corporealising him, making him a contender for the Shanshu (pisses me off no end) had the writers been watching th show ANGEL or were they all just Buffy fans. "Ah lets take what Angel has and, lets see, oh yes give it to Spike"  |
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Post by shred on Jan 3, 2007 15:56:06 GMT 10
Okay... shred - Would you also say that Angel's death (or being sent to Hell) in Becoming was also cheapened by his return? I'm not saying that bringing back characters from the dead cheapens their death. There's a difference between Angel's death and Spike's death. As posted by Glenn, Spike's death was a self-sacrifice while Angel wasn't. I think the meaning of Spike's death was cheapened when he came back. The comeback robbed the act of its meaning. He was willing to sacrifice himself because Spike felt that it was something he had to do to atone for everything he has done as William the Bloody. He died with the hope of being a better person. That meaning is gone when he came back. And it made it worse when he came back for nothing. Lorne was such an integral part of the group during Angel season 4 yet all of a sudden he became a nobody with no real reason for being there just to accomodate a character who's course had been run. Good point. Another reason why I didn't like Spike coming to Angel. Spike's appearance pushed Lorne far to back into the background. Unlike Spike, Lorne had a story to tell. How did a peace-loving demon like him change into someone who is able to put two bullets into a human without blinking? After Fred's death, we see glimspes of Lorne becoming depress but we don't know why. If Spike wasn't around, I'm sure the writers would have paid more attention to Lorne and tell us the changes that he's going through. Spike's story ended when he died in Chosen. There was no need for Spike to come back. When I heard that he was, I was ok with it. I thought "Hmm, so there's more stories to tell about Spike?". But when the season aired, there wasn't. Compared to Lorne, the green demon had more to say than Spike, in my opinion. |
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Post by Allan on Jan 3, 2007 22:49:17 GMT 10
I don't think Spike's death is cheapened by him coming back.
If you look at Narnia, and Aslan's return, I'd say that's cheaper. Why? Because when Aslan sacrificed himself, he knew he'd come back. Spike didn't.
Joss was basically done with Firefly by Angel season 5, wasn't he?
I think by the time that came around, he was desperately trying to invigorate it. Whether he did the right or wrong thing with the season is another discussion, but I think the choices he made were in trying to keep the show on the air, rather than simply not caring.
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jeanvic
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Post by jeanvic on Jan 4, 2007 3:37:41 GMT 10
This may sound mean but i got the feeling that Joss Whedon didnt care too much about Angel season 5. He only wrote 4 of the episodes. He had invested so much of his time into Firefly which got cancelled i think he was too tired and pissed to care too much. Bringing Spike to Ats was a quick fix, it was guarenteed to bring fans and make the tv bigwigs happy. So much time was wasted on Spike, corporealising him, making him a contender for the Shanshu (pisses me off no end) had the writers been watching th show ANGEL or were they all just Buffy fans. "Ah lets take what Angel has and, lets see, oh yes give it to Spike" Ha, yes Glenn. Well said. I also saw that Joss no longer had any interest. I mean, one of the most popular episodes saw Spike and Angel degrade themselves to beating each other up. Creative! That's been done. Angel is better, we all know it so why go back and have them fight again. It's like having Buffy fight Spike in every episode. We know the end result. Buffy is and always will be better. So yes I agree, Joss appeared to lose interest, so much that he didn't even close C/A very well. "Giving" the shanshu to Spike was wrong! It had been Angel's goal for five years and now it was suddely Spike's. Spike doesn't deserve it in comparison to Angel and if he does get it he will brag about it no end. Angel will never be happy but Spike can be. In all honesty, how is that right? Angel was ruined by Spike. |
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Post by Beck on Jan 4, 2007 8:25:39 GMT 10
I dont think either deserved the Shanshu at that point in time and I disagree that they should have been so focussed on the 'reward' but I went into that in another thread  I also don't think it was 'given' to Spike. I've already said I dislike the way Spike was written in Ats but I don't agree that Angel is 'better' than Spike. Nor do I believe its the other way around. And as I recall, Spike won that fight Even Angel accepts they are both Champions now. I don't think Joss lost interest in the series. Remember it was axed halfway through, and its been said that Joss had big plans for season 6 and that could have been the main reason for bringing Spike into it. Also, there was pressure from the network to get ratings or it could be canned. Bringing Spike in ensured more fans would watch - I don't see that as Joss losing interest, I see it as trying to save his show from being axed. And it did boost ratings, its a shame it was still axed (despite I think having higher ratings than season 4). I think Spike should have been written more in character and wasn't happy with how he was on Ats. So much more could have been done with him, but unfortunately he wasn't the only character to be written badly in that season (for instance a lot of BtVS writers that crossed over write Angel badly, imo) |
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Post by Allan on Jan 4, 2007 10:06:12 GMT 10
I seem to recall an interview with Joss, where he mentioned that Angel didn't have all Buffy's viewers. Spike being included in the show was a means to get people who only watched Buffy to shift across to Angel.
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Post by Allan on Jul 25, 2007 22:43:14 GMT 10
Does anybody else have an opinion on this?
And for those who didn't like Spike in AtS, what do you think his lowest point was, and do you think he was salvageable?
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I agree he was inconsistent on Angel, but not just his dialogue. He didn't fit in there and had no real purpose on the show, other than to boost ratings. I agree with Jeanvic that he took over Lorne's role and pushed him into the background. Spike should have been left off the show. I didn't like much of the Spike/Angel interaction, he brought out Angel's childish side and brought down his character as well. And the rehashing of the Doyle/Angel Powers that Be's champion storyline with Spike and Lindsey was unnecessary. Lindsey could have been brought back in a better way. 
I also don't think it was 'given' to Spike.