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Post by Kana on Aug 21, 2007 2:22:12 GMT 10
Well I've said it before but I think Spike actually progressed in Season 5. I've always questioned who Spike was doing it for. I respected Angel because he had his own mission, belief system etc but with Spike I wondered if he's just pleasing the girls in his life, his mum, Dru, Buffy and Fred to an extent although that wasn't out of love. When Spike said he was staying because he believed in th mission even though he didn't much like Angel for company that showed development and it definately makes him more than the vamp we see in 4, 5 and 6 of Buffy.
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Post by Glenn on Aug 30, 2007 8:34:43 GMT 10
I think most of the decisions he made, such as staying to fight alongside Angel showed that he had progressed as a person. But often his attitude and some of the things he would say would remind me much more of Spike season 4 than Spike season 7.
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Post by Laura on Sept 1, 2007 9:02:45 GMT 10
I agree. There were still signs of Spike progressing in the fifth season of Angel, but there were also signs of season four Spike. I blame it on Angel  . Whenever he's around Angel, he seems to be much more immature (reminds me of a lot of guys, actually  ). Plus, he was a lot more like season 7 Spike around Fred. Maybe it's just around people who seem to acknowledge him as an actual human (Joyce, Buffy, ect.) However, in "Damage" Spike and Angel actually talked without any sign of season four Spike. That showed character progression as well. |
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Post by Allan on Sept 1, 2007 22:44:49 GMT 10
But often his attitude and some of the things he would say would remind me much more of Spike season 4 than Spike season 7. To a degree, I'd agree with that, though I'd argue that a large part of season 7 was Spike finding his inner self again and putting his past deeds behind him and moving on. I see his stint on Angel as an extension of that. |
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Post by Kana on Sept 2, 2007 0:20:40 GMT 10
Same here. With Spike there is also an element of insecurity. If you watch closely, he acts like Season 7 Spike when he has tender moments, like with Fred but in Season 7 when Angel is mentioned he becomes a little of Season 5 of ats Spike so, these all the facets of his character.
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jeanvic
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Post by jeanvic on Sept 2, 2007 10:20:55 GMT 10
I think Spike is simply jealous and threatened by Spike. He doesn't like that Angel is talked about in a good light when he thinks he knows more about him than them. He thinks Angel is still the monster that Spike knew. He thinks Angel deserves nothing of what he has. Truth is, he doesn't know Angel as he is now and knows nothing of what he has been through. I think though that by the end of the Season, Spike sees and respects everything Angel does and has had to face.
When he arrives, he thinks Angel is still the big man, swaggering around with things that champions deserve, not sadistic bastards. Yet he learns that Angel has helped a lot of people and lost a lot as well. I think he appreciates more and more of what Angel has dealt with for 100 years. I mean, he struggled to handle the soul in his first year. Angel's had it for 100. I'm sure he respects that. So I think he was very defensive and immature, pathetic around Angel for the bad side he knew, but stopped behaving like that when he saw the good that Angel is with a soul.
Same with Angel. At the start, all he knew of Spike was William the Bloody. By the end, he sw Spike, Vampire with a Soul.
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Post by Allan on Sept 2, 2007 14:41:34 GMT 10
I think Spike is simply jealous and threatened by Spike. That makes for an interesting identity crisis. The two characters bring out the worst in each other. When they didn't have their souls, they didn't get along most of the time, and Angel spent a long time with one, when Spike didn't, which would definitely make their conflict worse. When Spike finally got his soul, I think there relationship resembled bickering brothers. Angel was older and theoretically wiser, Spike was younger and failing to see the logic in much of what Angel did. And the two bring out the worst in each other, and show just how petty these guys can be. |
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jeanvic
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Post by jeanvic on Sept 2, 2007 14:55:14 GMT 10
I think Spike is simply jealous and threatened by Spike. That makes for an interesting identity crisis. The two characters bring out the worst in each other. When they didn't have their souls, they didn't get along most of the time, and Angel spent a long time with one, when Spike didn't, which would definitely make their conflict worse. When Spike finally got his soul, I think there relationship resembled bickering brothers. Angel was older and theoretically wiser, Spike was younger and failing to see the logic in much of what Angel did. And the two bring out the worst in each other, and show just how petty these guys can be. Yeah, sorry about the id crisis. Was tired when I posted and thinking of Spike. I hear what you're saying though, but I noticed something later on. Angel seemed to stop the pettiness, which I think is down to what you said, older and wiser. Spike would take digs and Angel seemed to shrug it off. I saw Angel's major pettiness around when he was feeling pretty crap. When he was alone and lacking a mission, the only thing he had was petty arguing with Spike. Now he isn't alone and has a mission, he has no time for the petty bickering and leaves it. Of course, its still there like real brothers but much less. Also, it seems there dislike and bitterness subsided when they understood each other. I think that point came in Damage when Angel realised Spike was suffering with a soul, but dealing with it differently, and Spike truly came to realise the pain that Angel has been through for so long. I think it gave them a mutual respect. I am glad you said they were both petty though. I've heard a lot of people say Angel was petty and pathetic around Spike, yet they never brought blondie bear into it. They're equally to blame, IMO. |
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Post by Allan on Sept 2, 2007 14:59:07 GMT 10
I think a lot of the reason people seem to focus on Angel being petty is that the guy is generally moping about, as opposed to Spike who is generally treated as "lighter". I think Angel's role was unexpected for a lot of people.
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jeanvic
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Post by jeanvic on Sept 2, 2007 16:46:16 GMT 10
Angel's always been a moper though, so there is no difference in Season 5.
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Post by Allan on Sept 2, 2007 18:33:18 GMT 10
I was talking more about the immaturity that Spike brought out of him in season 5.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 6, 2007 8:19:31 GMT 10
Ive always had that Love/Hate relationship with Spike, and it continued in Season 5 of Angel.
When Spike first came to the show he was a shining light, and i eagerly looked forward to seeing him in any episode. That continued all the way through the series. It wasn't until i got internet access and was barraged by Spike obsessives that i went off his character. Not the greatest reason for character dislike i know, but it happened. He did win me back in season 5 of Angel though. Angel has always been my favourite charater and the constant barrage of insults and put downs that Spike kept throwing at him had me raking at my eyeballs. However, my whole attitude towards him changed after that scene at the end of Damage. Thats when i could truly be a Spike fan again.
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Post by Allan on Sept 6, 2007 9:04:34 GMT 10
The scene at the end of "Damage" was brilliant. I agree that was an excellent Spike moment. His insulting Angel didn't bug me - it was established that he wasn't the biggest fan of him since season two of BtVS, and Spike has always been sarcastic.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 6, 2007 9:07:24 GMT 10
I know that his dislike for Angel was well established. My natural instincts however were to be defensive of Angel because he was my favourite. Like if someone is badmouthing a friend of mine even for a good reason, it will still annoy me |
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Post by Allan on Sept 6, 2007 9:16:13 GMT 10
That's fair enough. I guess Angel was never my favourite character (not that I disliked him), so I never had that connection. But it always hurts to see a character you love hurting.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned much in this thread is Spike's chemistry with Fred. I love how he bonded with her over the course of the season.
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Post by Glenn on Sept 6, 2007 9:19:53 GMT 10
It was a great bond, and is probably the only time that Spike has got close to a female without people raising flags for a ship. Was great chemistry, but you could see that is was purely friendship and respect. Spike has always appreciated when people have seen him as more than a mere monster and Fred did that.
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Post by Allan on Sept 6, 2007 10:06:29 GMT 10
I agree that it was great to see Spike get close to a female where there was no ship prospect, though I am surprised that people weren't expecting it to happen. And after the Illyria transformation, the way Spike treated her out of respect for Fred was also fantastic. I'm sure there's some slash fiction about Illyria and her "pet", though. |
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. Whenever he's around Angel, he seems to be much more immature (reminds me of a lot of guys, actually 
). Plus, he was a lot more like season 7 Spike around Fred. Maybe it's just around people who seem to acknowledge him as an actual human (Joyce, Buffy, ect.)
