Spike - Ruined by Ats?

[Beck]

Did anyone else find that the writers of Ats season 5 completely f**ked up the character of Spike? All of his develpoment and change that occured in BtVS season 7 was completely ignored and he went back to basically season 4 Spike - with soul. The only times there were glimpses of the man Spike had become, were around Fred.

This pissed me off as they seemed to have put Spike in as the comic relief. Thats what Lorne was for! and Lorne got pushed to the sidelines, which also annoyed me as i loved Lorne.

[aperson]

well I liked season 5 spike because he was nearly as brilliant as he was back when he had no soul or chip in season 2. But yeah, it pissed me off because of the lack of continuity. He was suppose to be ensouled. But he just acted like his season 4 self. Which I kind of liked. But yeah, it was still stupid.

[Loz]

Its was totally f*$#ed what they did to Spike in Ats season 5. Its like they didn't know what had been going on in Sunnydale for the past three series. I'm actually really surprised that Joss let the Spike character go the way he did. I always thought Joss loved the evolution and development of Spike and in season 5 he took a HUGE step back.

[Bre]

I think that it was a brilliant idea to bring him back to life and put him on ANgel. If Spike wouldn't have come, the season would have almost been crap. Even with Illyria in the season, because Spike and Illyria's chemistry was great. And now, there's a *little* chance of him having a spinoff.

[Shaun]

The season was crap with or without Spike. He was put their as the comic relief, which is a role that should have been left to Lorne or another character. I didn't like him on Angel.

[Bre]

I totally disagree with you. Season five was my favorite Angel season. And I don't believe he was just on there for comic relief.

[Shaun]

I hated it. There were so many things wrong with it, but I've said them in another thread somewhere

[Loz]

Not a fan either.... but as pointed out all the bad points have been posted elsewhere

[Beck]

That thread is here if you want to discuss that

[Kana]

I can't really remember season 4, 5, 6 and 7 of Buffy but Spike didn't appear out of character to me. The key word here is insecurity and we have to consider his feelings towards Angel and his being incorporeal. If I remember Chosen correctly citing the way both Angel and Spike were behaving in regards to each other it seems perfectly consistent. Interestingly in Just Rewards although Spike is well 'spikey' he still comes through for the side of good for it's own sake which is the most notable change, the old Spike wouldn't have done that.

[Lexie]

How I see it is although Spike had been through character development when it comes to Angel he hasn't changed at all. Remember in Chosen, when he has a picture of Angel's face on a punching bag? That's the same kind of attitude he has in season 5 of Angel. It's like family, though you may have grown as a person doesn't mean that feelings and actions towards them are going to make a huge change--especially only after three years.

I don't think he was used just as comic relief, either. It showed Angel and Spike together again and their reactions to and about each other. How, even though there is tons of tension between them, they still work well together.

It also didn't bother me because I like that "version" of Spike. The Spike I loved in season 2 and season 4 came back.

[Kana]

I also liked Spike's perception which was welcome in Angel especially as the other characters were somewhat self involved. Cordy was the one who was more in touch with the world and brought Angel out of himself but Spike's presence and connection with the world (note the irony of Spike's complaint about being a ghost in Numero Cinco).

Also liked Spike's realism in terms of what happened to Fred compared to Angel's idealism, note these comparisons between Spike and Angel's relationship with Buffy.

[Casi]

Well I think the real problem with Spike in season five is that he and Angel were in close proximity. Thats about it. I mean they have such issues that I don't really see his behavior in season five as a regression of his character, but more a natural reaction to being around Angel.

Think of it this way, Spike had some really great SPIKE moments when he was talking to Fred and then later talking to Illyria. He even had some really decent on his own stuff. But when Angel is near, I think it's difficult for him. Spike has basically lived his entire unlife in the shadow of Angelus. And then Angel got his soul and the dynamics shifted. Look at how drastically Spike's character changed when Angelus was in the mansion as compared to when he was in charge. He became almost meek a lot of the time. This isn't all that different.

Even now I think Spike is having a hard time dealing with Angel because he's once again struggling in his wake. Angel kind of had the monopoly on the whole "vampire with a soul" thing, so Spike is once again trying to be his own person and not be overshadowed by Angel. I saw his actions in season five much the same way as I view sibling rivalry, where one child will act out in order to differentiate himself from his older brother. It's him saying "I'm different. I'm special." Thats how I saw Spike.

The only moment that I really thought was a regression was when he slept with Harmony again. That moment was so random I have no words for it.

[Glenn]

One of my favourite moments of the Season is the moment between Angel and Spike at the end of "Damage" with Spike in the hospital bed. They talk about monsters and victims and that is the first time i see Spike and Angel having a genuine connection with each other.

[Casi]

I agree! I think that they really had some major growth moments in the season as well. I particularly enjoyed them in "The Girl in Question" or as I affectionately call it: "The Spike and Angel Goofey Hour." While, yes, the episode left much to be desired, I think it was really good character wise. I think seeing those two work together for the first time in almost forever, is pretty amazing.

That and I think it's cute that they can disagree on everything including what color grass is, but the moment the immortal gets involved, they are on the same side.

[Kana]

I think I pretty much agree with all that. I enjoyed the dichotomy as much as the connection. I really enjoyed the episode Destiny. It was the story of two men who know each other a little too well and the problem with this is that you undermine someone's heroism even when it isn't the full story. What was interesting was the parellel with the past. Angelus kept Drusilla from Spike merely to undermine him and secure his position as the dominant male whereas Angel kept Spike from the cup because he feared his place as champion would be compromised.

[Casi]

Oh I don't think thats the reason he took the cup. I think he did it because Angel wanted it, as simple as that. Here we have two characters who will almost always be at odds. And I think what this episode was showing is that the tables have turned. Angelus kept Spike down under his thumb for so many years. And now Spike, for quite possibly the first time in their history together, has the chance to beat him. I don't think his championship was what made Spike take that cup. I think it was knowing that he had beat Angel to it. For once in his life, just once, he had the chance to be better than Angel. It may sound superficial, but I think it really has such deep seeded daddy issues with Angel that it really makes sense.

[Kana]

I'm not sure if we got our wires crossed. I was talking about Angel's motivation to fight for the cup, not Spike's.

As for Spike's motivation, I think he did want the destiny for it's own sake and taking it away from Angel was an added bonus. Spike admitted as much. I think Spike won the fight for a few reasons
1) He was new and fresh to the whole champion thing. We know he wanted to be seen as champion because he was so touched by Buffy giving him that title. Angel had grown cynical about prophecies.
2) I think Spike loves the thrill of the fight whereas Angel is strongest when he truly believes in what he is fighting for. Fighting out of insecurity isn't enough for Angel.
3) He wanted to finally take something away from Angel.

[Deleted]

I think that at the beginning of the season he was very out of place in terms of character development. True, he was in close proximity to Angel again and that caused conflict, but even then I feel he regressed too much. He had such wonderful moments with other characters--Fred, for instance--that it felt as though they were turning the hot water on and off.
I started liking him as an AtS character toward the end of the season, though, once Illyria was introduced. I think the writers focused more on the development of Angel and Spike working together without killing each other, which I agree couldn't be ignored, and happened to push Spike's personal character development out of the way to do so.

[Glenn]

Spike only really connected with Buffy out of the entire scooby core. When he joined Angel he connected nicely with Fred and Gunn and even Wesley. If his character really did backtrack to say, his season 4 persona then this certainly wouldnt have happened