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Post by Loz on Aug 10, 2005 12:21:03 GMT 10
Damn you are lucky you added that last line! I was sitting here reading it, mouth gaping, eyes bugging. I was so going to let you have it....
Anyway probably should go back to Angel Season 5 before Commandant Beck gets on here
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Post by Shaun on Aug 10, 2005 12:23:04 GMT 10
I still meant every word I wrote.
Angel season 5. I hated it. Worst season of any Joss show ever.
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Post by Loz on Aug 10, 2005 12:33:28 GMT 10
I still meant every word I wrote. I don't actually know what to write. I'm too tired to argue with ya  . I think we'll have to just agree to disagree on this one. P.S. Spike rocks |
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Post by Shaun on Aug 10, 2005 12:39:23 GMT 10
Its all true is why you don't know what to write  |
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Post by Beck on Aug 10, 2005 12:40:23 GMT 10
Oh for Christs sakes. Spike did not monopolise the time in Season 7. The damn potentials did. And Spike was not pathetic. Or weak. How does being in love make him weak? He couldn't fight in season 4 so obviously this harmed him, but I never found him pathetic. He was fine when he realised he could hit demons.
In season 7 he was no more useless than Angel was when he got his soul. In fact, it was only a year before Spike was FINE. Of course there was an adjustment period. And look at Touched if you want examples of when he was passionate. Or in Chosen to show strength
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Post by Loz on Aug 10, 2005 12:44:00 GMT 10
Shaun you just got totally bitch slapped Thanks Becksta! |
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Post by Shaun on Aug 10, 2005 12:47:11 GMT 10
He was totally pathetic in season 4. He tried to stake himself because even he knew how pathetic he was. Then he moped around for all of season 5 giving soppy looks to Buffy. In season 7 he finally stood up only at the end of the season. he was far better in season 2.
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Post by Beck on Aug 10, 2005 12:56:08 GMT 10
*Sigh* I'm not going to dignify that with a response. It makes no sense, so obviously you are trying to piss us off.
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aperson
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Nov 27, 2024 6:20:59 GMT 10
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Post by aperson on Aug 10, 2005 16:21:56 GMT 10
Buffy has always been annoying. Spike was a great character when he was evil. Then he became so soppy and pathetic. okay these are exactly my feelings. I won't bother argueing with Beck and Lozza because I know how they are with Spike and it will just be a waste of time. But I've agreed with pretty much all of Shaun's points. okay beck, what the? that made complete sense. And I completely agree. Season 2 Spike should have stayed the whole time... |
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francy
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Nov 27, 2024 6:20:59 GMT 10
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Post by francy on Aug 15, 2005 0:16:58 GMT 10
Spike didn't monopolize Season 5 Ats... he was reduced to a buffoon because the writers were afraid it might have happened, if they had kept Spike in character with what we saw in season 7 of Btvs. In the process, not only they ruined Spike, but they ruined also Angel, because he doesn't look like a big mature hero in season 5. If they ruined Spike in order to not obscure Angel, they didn't fulfill their aim. I am happy that Spike was not permanently dead after Chosen, but I'm not happy about how they used him in Angel. So, I try to keep in mind that they used him for comic relief, and that he behaved like that because he was around Angel and other not so friendly guys. If you notice, with Fred he goes back to Btvs season 7 Spike, so I guess his behaviour changes depending on who he has around. He couldn't be sensitive and sweet guy around Angel, so he put up the sarcastic and tough mask. If Buffy was there, he would go back to the Spike we love. He behaves like a jerk because he hates Angel, but the soul is there, and he can use it very well if he wants. Infact, he takes the right decisions, mainly to help the Angel team in the fight against evil, and without Buffy's influence, and this is a sign of his growing maturity. So, not everything is bad in the treatment of Spike in Ats.
As for season 5, I haven't seen enough to comment (I have only seen the parts regarding Spike), but I hate how they ended Cordelia's story. You're welcome is a nice episode, but I hated that we didn't see the real Cordy for a season and a half, and when we saw her, she was dead. She deserved better.
I love Illyria, even if I'm sorry for poor Fred.
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francy
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Nov 27, 2024 6:20:59 GMT 10
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Post by francy on Aug 15, 2005 0:22:05 GMT 10
I would try to answer to this poster, Shaun, who finds Spike pathetic, Beck. But I have learnt that it is useless. Guys have problems with males who show weaknesses, who put feelings at the first place. They like tough guys, who don't threaten the image of men as machos. They are afraid to see a man who is subjected to his feelings for a woman, because they are afraid to lose control. So I leave them in their hate.
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Post by Shaun on Aug 15, 2005 11:53:51 GMT 10
I have no problem wth guys showing weakness. And I do not hate Spike, he was one of my favourite characters. I dislike the way Spike's character arc went in season 5 of Buffy. Putting your feelings on show is a different matter to stalking and doing things to try to get yourself in a girl's good books. Which is what Spike did all through season 5. So yes, I find Spike's behaviour to be pathetic at times in that season.
Xander often puts his feelings on the line and is not always macho, and he is my favourite male character. So your reasoning that men do not like softer guys is wrong and in my opinion, unfair.
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francy
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Nov 27, 2024 6:20:59 GMT 10
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Post by francy on Aug 15, 2005 18:41:53 GMT 10
Yeah, it's just my theory!  But I have noticed that many males have problems with post season 4 Spike, when he stopped being the cool Big Bad. Maybe it's not your case, fair enough! But it's a tendence I noticed. And yes, stalker Spike was pathetic, but he was a soulless vampire in love with his mortal enemy, so I don't expect from him a mature behaviour, or that he knew how to conquer her in the right way. I really have no problem with that, because there is much more to Spike than being a stalker. That was just a phase. Then, he made other mistakes, but he made up for them. Being "pathetic" led him to change, and become a champion. So, excuse me if I don't find this guy pathetic. |
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Post by Shaun on Aug 16, 2005 9:33:11 GMT 10
I don't say he is totally pathetic. But he was pathetic in Buffy season 5. You admit that too. I don't hate Spike, he was still an interesting character. I don't expect mature behaviour for him, but the stalker Spike was not great to watch.
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Post by Bre on Sept 9, 2005 14:36:37 GMT 10
Sorry to interrupt all of your indepth arguing with my opinions, but you're just going to have to read them ;D: Spike: Pros - I loved his and Illyria's chemistry, and I think Spike made Season 5 better than what it would have been without him. (And he is not weak!) Cons - Well I can't think of any Angel: Pros: Well, I absolutely adored him in Smile Time and I liked his and Angel's chemistry. Cons: He was an ass to his posse! That's not very suave there Angel. Fred : Pros: I loved the fact that her and Wes finally, truly expressed their love for eachother (which took too long!). And as much as I was crying that she died, I loved "her" transformation to Illyria. Cons: Nothing except for the fact that I was pissed she wasn't alive.  Even though I love Illyria Lorne : Pros: I just love Lorne, and he was great with Harm. Cons: I was upset when he was made to kill Lindsey. It was so not in his character, and it kind of made me lose respect for him (Even though it was Angel's instructions). Cordy: Pros: I was glad she made an appearance. Cons: SHE DIED! And I didn't like the whole Cordy/Angel kiss thing. It's not right... Gunn: Pros: I loved it when he sacrificed himself in that akward little world thing when he was becoming more like the old Gunn. Cons: His stupid brain transplant. I hated smart Gunn! Wesley: Pros: Everything. There was nothing about Wes' ccharacter I didn't like. Cons: NONE And the bit about Spike and Angel spying on Buffy, the only thing that bugged me is that we never got to see Buffy. But I loved Andrew's bit. |
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Post by Shaun on Sept 9, 2005 14:51:18 GMT 10
I think we are going to disagree on most of this Sorry to interrupt all of your indepth arguing with my opinions, but you're just going to have to read them ;D: Spike: Pros - I loved his and Illyria's chemistry, and I think Spike made Season 5 better than what it would have been without him. (And he is not weak!) Cons - Well I can't think of any How do you think he made season 5 better? I personally didn't think he added much to the storyline at all. He was there as comedy relief. Cons for Spike? His character changed from how he was at the end of Buffy to how he was in season 4 of buffy. I didn't mind season 4 Spike, but he should have been kept in character. And he didn't really do anything except walk around cracking jokes or getting in the way. I know he helped out with the fighting, but he really wasn't needed. Lorne was barely in season 5. When he was he wasn't doing anything. I would have liked to have seen Lorne involved in the season more, and not just in one episode. Does everyone on this forum have a problem with Cordy and Angel together but me? I wanted more of Cordelia in season 5. She should have at least been mentioned more. |
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Post by Bre on Sept 10, 2005 7:33:59 GMT 10
Yes, I knew someone would agrue with me...
I think he made the season better because I loved his character. There's not much more I can say. It's just my opinion, and without him I thought it would be dull. Of course his character changed from Season 4, because he got his soul! He's not going to be the same at all. Remember Angel's change? That was huge, and no one seemed to complain about that. And he definitely was needed even if Angel didn't think so. He fought, which they need, and there needs to be someone cracking jokes. Otherwise the episode with drag out, and be boring.
Yeah, i guess I agree with that. But I never cared that much for his character beyond season 2.
Well yeah it's wrong! He was with Buffy, he's Buffy's guy, then Cordy (like her old ways) stole her man, and I don't know, I just don't think of them as lovers...
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Post by buffymanic on Sept 10, 2005 9:05:33 GMT 10
I don't think Cordy stole him. She had changed and grew a lot from her old days and I think that the relationship Cordy and Angel had grew completely from friendship.
I don't believe that if their relatioship had continued that it would have grown as big as Buffy and Angel's because I've experienced these 'friend' relationships + I think they just come along when both of you need a pick up + mostly never last
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Post by Shaun on Sept 12, 2005 10:55:21 GMT 10
I think he made the season better because I loved his character. There's not much more I can say. It's just my opinion, and without him I thought it would be dull. I still found the season dull You misunderstood my post I know why Spike changed so much from season 4 but my point was Spike in Angel season 5 seemed more like Spike from Season 4 Buffy, and not how he was souled in season 7. His character development was largely ignored on Angel. Sorry I saw Angel first so I never noticed a huge change in him I found episodes before Spike came to Angel to be funny. I don't think Spike is very funny on Angel, he just annoys me. They weren't ever lovers. There was something between them but they never had a relationship so I can't see how Cordy stole Buffy's man |
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Post by Bre on Sept 12, 2005 11:33:46 GMT 10
Ok, yes I misunderstood your post. And I agree with you there. Well that makes sense then. I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this point. Okay. So she didn't actually steal Buffy's man, but still the thought of it grosses me out. The only time I considered their "relationship" was on the 100th episode, because I knew it was Cordy's last, so I forgave her for that. |
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. I think we'll have to just agree to disagree on this one.
But I have noticed that many males have problems with post season 4 Spike, when he stopped being the cool Big Bad. Maybe it's not your case, fair enough!
Even though I love Illyria
