Personality Transplants in Season 5

[Shaun]

You didn't mind the way Spike was handled on Angel even a little?

[Bre]

Nope. I'll admit I haven't studied the season as thoroughly as others, because I don't own them on DVD (yet). But I have seen many of the episodes duplicate times, and what I've seen of Spike is great. He's witty, as usualy, and him and the Angel gang's (can't really call them Angel Investigations anymore) chemistry was perfect. Again, Joss and the writers were awesome with Spike, so I found gim great. And there were times when there was some serious things that were going on and at that point the writers felt that there needed to be a comic relief of Spike's at that moment. So, yeah, he wasn't the same as he might've been if BtVS was still around, but I'm not complaining.

[Shaun]

I've only seen most of the episodes once, because I really didn't enjoy the season at all. The episodes were badly written and the story just annoyed me. I can't see the benifits of having Spike on there sorry. Comic relief could have been done by another character, like Harmony or Lorne. Spike was brought in because he's a popular character not because he was necessary to the plot. I don't think the writers were good with Spike so we'll have to agree to disagree there

[Bre]

Oh! You had to mention Harmony! I loathe her beyond words. She annoyed me, and she is a character where I saw no use for whatsoever! Yeah, when she came back (in season 2, was it?) it was cute. But then when she left I wasn't dissappointed. And when she came back after that, I thought that there was no use for her. She wasn't written like a vampire and her little affair with, agh I can't think of his name so I'll call him Jayne, made things worse.

[Shaun]

It was Hamilton.

Substitute Harmony's name for Spike in most of that and you will see my opinion on Spike during his time on Angel

[Bre]

:: ha ;D ha :: Yes, yes.. you hate Spike, and if it's as much as I disliked Harm in s. 5 then I feel your pain.
(, Hamilton!)

[Shaun]

I don't hate Spike, I just don't like him on Angel Or for a lot of the last half of Buffy

[tinkerbell]

You do so hate Spike! I don't get why so many people bag out Spike on Angel, I thought he was more interesting on there than most of the others. I liked Spike back in season 4 Buffy better so him being like that never bothered me. I just asumed that it was Angel who brought out the childishness in him and I loved them together. I don't think the comedy should have been left to Lorne, they needed someone who was going to say annoying inappropriate things like Spike does. Makes for conflict amd makes for good viewing. I LOVED season 5 of Angel I thought the storyline withthe black thorn was cool.

[Shaun]

I do not hate Spike There was no need to have someone there to make annoying remarks. The only thing Spike did on the show was have spats with Angel. It ruined Angel's character, and was mostly just irritating.

I just asumed that it was Angel who brought out the childishness in him

Yes which made fascinating viewing

[Loz]

I always thought the Angel and Spike relationship was dark, viscious and well, kinda sexy. Then Season 5 of Angel made it like two five year old in the playground. I was not happy.

[Beck]

I actually liked the Spike/Angel interactions in Season 5... I thought they were funny. But yeah, it was a lot different to the relationship that they had previously had. There was always the jealousy and pettiness, but it was of a darker nature.

[Sammy]

Connor had a major personality transplant. I'm not silly, I don't mean when we first saw him. I mean when he found out about Angel's decision and he doesn't even make a rude comment to him. I found that very odd. I think I would have been quite rude if I had just gotten my memories back and they had been those sorts of memories, but that's just me.

[Shaun]

Conner understood what Angel had done for him, and he was grateful for it. All Conner ever wanted was a real family, and Angel gave him that. He still kept his good memories of his new family when he got his old ones back. And he finally realised that Angel did love him, and was willing to give him up if it meant Conner would be happy.

[Sammy]

But, I mean if anyone would just get their memories back about Kortoth, or however you spell it, then you would be a little demented anyway. It was a hell dimension. I liked the fact that he was nice to Angel for once though, I got sick of teen angst Connor.

[Kana]

As Wesley said, the memories were created to endure the truth. Conner clung to new memories and attempted to force the other memories out of his mind so seen as he most likely roots his identity with the new memories then it is likely that THAT Conner would be more understanding.

[Beck]

Sooooo anyone else have an opinion on the personality transplants that occured in Season 5? A lot has been mentioned of Spike.. who was the worst treated by the writers imo. Angel also bugs me in this season, he acts more like an immature brat for half the season than the Champion he is. I'm glad they fixed that towards the end of the season. Gunn obviously changes a lot too... but that was more the lawyer thing

[Kana]

Well, I'm sorry to say but I think it's going to be copy and pasting time. Let's see what I wrote in other forums.

"I could be way off here. I mean I can't remember Season 6 and 7 of Buffy very well but the way I see it Spike and Angel bring out the worst in each other. Respectively or with Buffy they show more depth and strength of character but when they are around each other they find it difficult to relate to one another accept as rivals." Kana, Buffyworld.

You have to appreciate the mood Angel and Spike are in. Angel never wanted to take over W&H but felt he had to for the reasons that we of course know. It's hard enough but then Spike turns up? That just pissed him off royaly and learning that Buffy had feelings for him doesn't bring out the champion in him.

Spike saved the world and now he's a ghost (as good as anyway) shoved back into the world with captain forehead for company. The two were pissed off and being stuck with each other was just the icing on the cake.

As for Gunn

"This is in relation to Season 5 Gunn. I don't believe Gunn was as out of character as many think, it is certainly believable. I think Gunn suffered from low self esteem and being too much a product of his environment.

Of course the most obvious thing to cite is his multi-layered jealousy of Wesley and how he it was he with whom she felt a closer connection. Sometimes when she fall in love we are laid bare and the latent insecurities become more prevalent. I definately think this is the case with Gunn.

Also it is a truism (although not the case with everyone) that our happiness is relative to what's around us. I must admit this is the case with me because if that were not the case I would be overjoyed with that was clean running water coming out of the taps. As Gunn had more we wanted to be more which is consistent with egotistical element of Gunn's character.

To me the brain boost was both unexpected and consistent in terms on the character arc. Although many thought that Gunn was out of character, I didn't think so. The best examples of the Gunn's character outside the muscle role were 'Players' and in 'Offspring'. Gunn can indeed be a smooth talker who can get out of a tight spot but it wasn't a talent that was recognised so when someone (or should I say something being the senior partners) recognised this in him then he became a victim of pride and jumped that the opportunity. When he became Lawyer Gunn he played up to the role (annoyingly so I admit) but it made sense. If don't like something about ourselves or we wonder where we fit, we sometimes attempt to become something else. Gunn admitted as much."

[jeanvic]

Season 5, IMO, was a terrible season. In my books it comes nowhere near Seasons 1, 2 and 3 but it isn't much worse than Season 4.

Now, I thought people would understand this a little better but obviously I was wrong. Persoanlity transpalnts? It's called working for the enemy, doing things you hate just to balance the books and trying to kid yourself that you are doing good. While I see all of you saying how you don't like people in this series, I feel undersatnding and compassion.

Angel:
He was harder, more brutal. He wasn't the kind man we were used to. Does this bother me? Yes. Do I understand it? Yes. He had lost his son and the woman he loved and the only way he could protect them was by becoming CEO of Wolfram and Hart. On top of that, Spike arrives to make his life hell. He begins to doubt he is a champion and he doubts the shanshu is his. All in all I think he has every reason to be broodier than usual. It all ends after Cordelia returns though and his mean nature after that is to confuse the Circle, Hamilton and keep his group at his throat so he can defeat the Corcle.

Gunn:
I can also understand his pov. For 3 years he was known as the muscle and it annoyed him. Now he has a brain upgrade and he is suddenly more valuable to the team, in his eyes. He feels needed and not like a spare part that can be replaced. Yes he gets a little arrogant from this but he learns from it and returns to his old ways at the end. He becomes Gunn again.

Wesley and Fred stayed the same.

Spike:
Now Spike I can't understand or feel compassion for. I thought he was a terrible character in this series and the writers did not do his new character justice. I felt it was a betrayal of the good Spike they created in Season 7. IMO, they should have left him dead and then his name wouldn't be tarnished by his actions in S5.

But, all that said, I think S5 was a season of transition. They tried fighting from the outside, now they've fought on the inside and in the end they all came out with better perspectives. Angel fights because he feels people shouldn't suffer. Spike fights because he thinks it is the right thing to do. Gunn fights because he wants to make his time on earth memorable. He wants to make a difference. In the end, regardless of what they went through and how their characters changed, they learned and they should have improved which I think they did. Now we just have to wait until the S6 comics come out so we can see the affects of this change.

[Beck]

jeanvic said:

Now, I thought people would understand this a little better but obviously I was wrong. Persoanlity transpalnts? It's called working for the enemy, doing things you hate just to balance the books and trying to kid yourself that you are doing good. While I see all of you saying how you don't like people in this series, I feel undersatnding and compassion.

You are entitled to your opinion, as we are to ours. Don't belittle other people's opinions because you disagree. I understand some of the changes, of course, does that mean i have to like them? No. And I do think some of the characters were off base, regardless of working for the enemy.

Angel:
He was harder, more brutal. He wasn't the kind man we were used to. Does this bother me? Yes. Do I understand it? Yes. He had lost his son and the woman he loved and the only way he could protect them was by becoming CEO of Wolfram and Hart. On top of that, Spike arrives to make his life hell. He begins to doubt he is a champion and he doubts the shanshu is his. All in all I think he has every reason to be broodier than usual. It all ends after Cordelia returns though and his mean nature after that is to confuse the Circle, Hamilton and keep his group at his throat so he can defeat the Corcle.

Kind man? I'm not sure I agree Angel was always a 'kind man' he certainly wasn't for much of season 2. I find Angel unlikeable in this season. I agree he had reasons to be broodier - though you wouldn't know that from his cameo in Chosen - but he didn't just become broodier, he became a character I had little to no sympathy for. Whether that was written badly, or played badly I don't know. But he went from one of my favourite characters on there, to cringing when he was onscreen for many episodes. Spike did not arrive to make his life hell, Angel you would think would have more sympathy having gone through the transition to having a soul. Spike I'll address in a minute.

Gunn:
I can also understand his pov. For 3 years he was known as the muscle and it annoyed him. Now he has a brain upgrade and he is suddenly more valuable to the team, in his eyes. He feels needed and not like a spare part that can be replaced. Yes he gets a little arrogant from this but he learns from it and returns to his old ways at the end. He becomes Gunn again.

Its helping the demons so willingly that is so out of place for Gunn. He doesn't seem to mind doing it, which goes against everything his character ever stood for. The others did so more reluctantly - not Gunn, he seemed to love it.

Spike:
Now Spike I can't understand or feel compassion for. I thought he was a terrible character in this series and the writers did not do his new character justice. I felt it was a betrayal of the good Spike they created in Season 7. IMO, they should have left him dead and then his name wouldn't be tarnished by his actions in S5.

Agreed, though I do feel some sympathy for him here, he comes back somewhere he knows he isn't wanted, and can't leave for a long time, and isn't even corporeal. There were glimpses of in character stuff from S7 when he was with Fred, but thats about it. And you'll notice most of the Personality transplant complaints are about Spike in this thread Spike was also too much of an ass to Angel, but thats more expected - it was Angel after all that turned him into the monster he was.

[Kana]

jeanvic said:

Now, I thought people would understand this a little better but obviously I was wrong. Persoanlity transpalnts? It's called working for the enemy, doing things you hate just to balance the books and trying to kid yourself that you are doing good. While I see all of you saying how you don't like people in this series, I feel undersatnding and compassion.

Have to agree with Beck. We all have different opinions but we do not need to get personal.

That said, working for W&H can legitimize many of the character changes.

Angel:
He was harder, more brutal. He wasn't the kind man we were used to. Does this bother me? Yes. Do I understand it? Yes

.

As Beck said Angel is no more brutal than he was in Season 2. I think the word here is pessimistic. He's on the verges of the nihilism we see in Reprise. In Reprise however he has the same plight he does when he was a soulled vamp before he met Buffy. "Is mankind worth saving?". Angel's problem is Season 5 however is that for the first time his change in attitude is not based upon morality, it's based upon what's at stake. OCC. I only accept OCC if there is no precendent, and there is...That Vision Thing. The stakes were lower and so was the consequence but the moral basis is the same: work with the enemy to protect what's at stake. Angel's morals are very important to him but Conner and Cordy are even more important. Angel at first is reluctant to work for money but is willing to be a money grabber for Conner's sake (Provider).

He had lost his son and the woman he loved and the only way he could protect them was by becoming CEO of Wolfram and Hart. On top of that, Spike arrives to make his life hell. He begins to doubt he is a champion and he doubts the shanshu is his.

These can all legitimately piss you right off. Angel wasn't as pissed off in Chosen because Spike hadn't become a legitimate rival just yet and at the very least he wouldn't have to spend an eternity with him until doh!!!

All in all I think he has every reason to be broodier than usual.

Angel also less confident in his stance as well but Lorne addresses his attitude in Unleashed, so at the very least it was intentional.

It all ends after Cordelia returns though and his mean nature after that is to confuse the Circle, Hamilton and keep his group at his throat so he can defeat the Corcle.

Uh huh. The whole, staying one step ahead and planning things behind people's back is very Angel(us). Couldn't be more in character. Standing up for free will and human dignity has been something Angel has been defending for ages (especially noted in the Jasmine eps) made total sense to me.

Gunn:
I can also understand his pov. For 3 years he was known as the muscle and it annoyed him. Now he has a brain upgrade and he is suddenly more valuable to the team, in his eyes. He feels needed and not like a spare part that can be replaced. Yes he gets a little arrogant from this but he learns from it and returns to his old ways at the end. He becomes Gunn again.

I think I mentioned most of my Gunn points above.

Wesley and Fred stayed the same.

Although Wes falls apart later on although it's understandable.

Spike:
Now Spike I can't understand or feel compassion for. I thought he was a terrible character in this series and the writers did not do his new character justice. I felt it was a betrayal of the good Spike they created in Season 7. IMO, they should have left him dead and then his name wouldn't be tarnished by his actions in S5.

Spike wasn't sometimes showed insensitivity but then we have precedence, in LMPTM. Spike needlessly told him his mother didn't love him. Being around Buffy brought out the best in him and Angel brought out the worst in him. Despite their differences they still ended up seeing what's important, the mission. Spike's not a saint he can be petty and immature, but he can also be understanding as well and he showed that in Season 5 as well at times.

But, all that said, I think S5 was a season of transition. They tried fighting from the outside, now they've fought on the inside and in the end they all came out with better perspectives. Angel fights because he feels people shouldn't suffer. Spike fights because he thinks it is the right thing to do. Gunn fights because he wants to make his time on earth memorable. He wants to make a difference. In the end, regardless of what they went through and how their characters changed, they learned and they should have improved which I think they did. Now we just have to wait until the S6 comics come out so we can see the affects of this change.

Yep.

That's all for now, but I'll most likely add more later.