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Post by Beck on Apr 19, 2007 14:57:14 GMT 10
Much is mentioned on Angel of the Shanshu Prophecy. What it is, what it means, and in season 5 - who wants it more? but what i wondered was - who deserved it more?
Does Angel, who spent years trying to atone for previous sins, years fighting evil and helping Buffy avert the apocolypse, deserve to become a human and live out a normal life? Hes spent the last 8 years working for the PTB, but does it make up for the 100 years of torture he dished out?
Or does Spike, who began to help out even without his soul (true he was chipped and couldn't do much evil). Who with his soul sacrificed himself to save the world - something Angel never did. He actually averted the Apocolpyse himself as the Prophecy says.
Or do you believe that neither of them deserved it? Is it really possible to atone for what they did without their souls? Should they even have to?
Keep in mind that Angel had a good 100 years more than Spike with his soul and obviously was able to help more people. Saying that Angel did more than Spike isn't really all that fair and none of this 'The Prophecy was written about Angel" business - no one knows that, it could be about either.
I thought we had this topic on here, as I know it is on Buffytalk, but I can't find it anywhere so I have restarted it.
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Post by Kana on Apr 19, 2007 22:39:16 GMT 10
I think the nature of the Shanshu may be uncertain.
For example everyone assumes the Shanshu is a reward, however isn't it said that the vampire will Shanshu after s/he has fulfilled his/her destiny on te side of good OR evil. So that suggest to me that the vampire will shanshu regardless of whether they deserve it or not.
Like I said before, I don't believe Angel and Spike are responsible for their unsoulled acts, so effectively I see them as two champions fighting for what they believe is right.
Like Beck said, either are eligible and I don't look at so much about how they got their souls or even if they didn't do that much with their souls. For me what's important is that they are willing to give up what left of their lives for the fight. They've made mistakes and fallen but they kept fighting regardless of whether they got a reward or not (Angel signed his Shanshu away).
On the note of the signed away Shanshu, I really don't know what that means but Lorne implies part of Angel's destiny is helping others. He fights even when hope for himself is gone and I think that parallels his action in NFA. I think Spike's the same. He's willing to give his life for the mission because it's important, even though he doesn't really like Angel.
To be honest, I don't think it's about deserving, I think the Shanshu will just happen regardless. Even if the PTBs do award it, that's their opinion. At least one of them wanted to destroy mankind after she didn't get her way. The fact that we can question Jasmine means we can question all of them in my opinion.
anyway different theories I've heard include...
* Wesley didn't translate the Shanshu propecy correctly and that the turn of events will remain ambigiuous until it's fruition, like the Troclon being both the ruination and purification of mankind. Jasmine's arrival can be interpreted as both. Maybe Angel signing his 'destiny' away was actually a good thing meaning that he may live and not die.
* Another theory of course is the Conner theory. This is actually consistent with what Angel said to Conner in Not Fade Away when he told him that as long as Conner is alive then Angel, even if he does die, will live in a fashion, through his human son Conner. Some say that Conner is Angel's reward himself which would mean that Spike could still Shanshu.
* Darla could be the vampire in question. She shared a soul with Conner and giving birth to him played a major part in the Apocalypse (Conner is definitely a player), she died and lived through Conner and Darla died and has been alive and has died and died again, lol, so she's like a Shan,shan,shanshu lol. Either way living and dying is ambiguous when it comes to a vampire.
Maybe Spike or Angel or another vampire with a soul will acheive 'actual' shanshu but maybe the prophecy will result in divine trickery one way or the other meaning that no vampire with become human but simply knowing about it served or will serve a higher purpose
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Post by Laura on Apr 20, 2007 2:18:47 GMT 10
Assuming the Shanshu was a reward, I had to vote for Spike.
The obvious answer would be Angel, since we always thought of his as the first vampire with a soul who started the process of redemption. However, as seen in some flash backs, Angel wasn't always good even when he had a soul. He even tried to be evil for Darla (though he failed). Spike accepted his soul, even if he was a little crazy, but he didn't kill (unless under influence of the trigger). Also, Angel admitted himself that Spike had wanted the prophecy more in "Destiny." (although it was fake, both Angel and Spike thought it was real).
I think Angel has always had a darker side, even with a soul. Spike imo seems to maintain a good side, even if he is a bit sarcastic about it.
Plus, Spike sought out a soul. Angel was cursed with one.
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Post by jeanvic on Apr 20, 2007 7:20:19 GMT 10
Oh for Petes sake. Spike fought for as soul. Yeah, and? After he had the soul I remember him bragging about things he did without one, like killing two slayers. I mean, he didn't even apologise to Robin about that, but threatened to kill him the next time.
Spike wanted the prophecy more? Again I say, and? Why does that mean he deserves it? He wanted it more because Angel didn't. Angel no longer believed in it and didn't put his all into it. Like we saw in Destiny, he didn't give it his all and he lost. Even he concluded he lost because Spike wanted it more. He would have won if he had weanted it more than Spike.
Angel kept a darker side? Yeah, its called being a vampire. He's never going to lose it is he. Vampire, human, whatever, the darker urges will always be there because they are a part of who he is. Spike is no different.
IMO, Angel deserves it more because of the things he has had to suffer and the things he has done for the world. So he never died in the technical sense, but he did give up a life with Buffy so he could fight for those who needed him. And in the last epsidoe he signed away the one thing that gave him any hope of recieving the redempton he has so longed for. He does that while Spike says, "Well, as long as it isn't you." Angel wants redemption, Spike wants a bit of both yet who is the one who gives it up? Angel.
And the prophecy can only be about Angel. It says the vampire who will play a major role in THE apocalypse, the one they are beginning to fight in Season 5. Not the First, not jasmine, a one hundred year war against the Senior Partners and it's only just begun. Who did the Circle say was the vampire spoken of? Who did they say was the threat to them and the Senior Partners? Spike? No, Angel. He is the only it is speaking of and he gave it away.
So unless Joss clearly specifies that it is never coming back, it might still come but IMO, giving it up warrants him having it.
That in fact was one of my theories, one you can add to your list Kana if you so wish. Perhaps it was never determined who the vampire was, like Eve said. But perhaps Angel signing his name on it makes it his. By acting selflessly and signing it away, he actually signs it to himself.
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Post by Kana on Apr 20, 2007 8:27:16 GMT 10
Absolutely, Angel actually being worthy because he signed it away is one of the theories I read but I forgot to mention it.
Maybe I should open another thread on this but how do you think Spike would react if he found out Angel signed away the Shanshu?
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Post by jeanvic on Apr 20, 2007 8:43:26 GMT 10
Not to degrade Spike but I think he would be shocked, he'd talk to Angel about it. They'd probably have one of their nice moments where they really understand each other, scenes that we didn't see enough of. Then Spike would probably make some snide comment, laugh at Angel and brag that it was his then in a typical Spike ruining the moment fashion.
As much as I like Spike, he does annoy when he's like that.
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Post by Beck on Apr 20, 2007 8:59:00 GMT 10
Ok I'm not going to go through and quote cause I'm lazy, but Spike saw the big picture a bit faster than Angel. He was insensitive with Robin - but he was also right. He is a vampire and was unsoulled, Nikki was the Slayer, its the way it goes. Doesn't mean he isn't sorry for it but he also knew there was a bigger fight about to come and he was needed. Angel spent over 100 years brooding, doing nothing. He even went back to Darla and was still feeding off humans - yes they were criminals but they were still humans.
Spike being expected to adjust and be perfect and remorseful immediately is a bit much imo. Who knows what Spike would do in the amount of time Angel has had with his soul? Angel has had much more opportunity to do good, and yet Spike in his very first year with a soul sacrificed himself for the world, and stopped an apocolpyse.
Tell me, where in the prophecy it says THE apocolpyse is the apocolpyse the Senior Partners are organising? Why is it necessarily theirs? Or why is theirs necessarily going to be stopped by Angel and not Spike? Because he fought them longer? So what - of course he did, SPike didnt have his soul then. How are the Circle experts on the prophecy? Because they studied it? Please. They can study it all they like, interpret it all they like - the prophecy (from my memory) only mentions a soulled vampire playing a big part in the apocolpyse. Which could be one of many in the Jossverse, and not specifically one involving the Senior Parnters, thats speculation.
So the prophecy could be about either one. Now the question to who deserves it, I think they both do. Angel's had more than 100 times the amount of years than Spike to do good. To say he did more is unfair to Spike, and irrelevant. Course he did, thats a time thing - nothing more. Given the same time, who knows what Spike is capable of.
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Post by Laura on Apr 20, 2007 10:05:38 GMT 10
Oh for Petes sake. Spike fought for as soul. Yeah, and? Not only did he fight for it, but he went to get it. He knew that it may drive him insane with guilt, yet he did it anyway. Angel never wanted a soul, he just got one and suffered because of it. Then, because of his soul and conscience, he started to help people. Spike wanted the prophecy more? Again I say, and? Why does that mean he deserves it? He wanted it more because Angel didn't. Angel no longer believed in it and didn't put his all into it. Like we saw in Destiny, he didn't give it his all and he lost. Even he concluded he lost because Spike wanted it more. He would have won if he had weanted it more than Spike. If you want something more then it can imply that you know what you want to do with it. Angel had given up on the prophecy, which meant he didn't care anymore. If you truly want (or think you deserve) something, then you don't give up on it. And the prophecy can only be about Angel. It says the vampire who will play a major role in THE apocalypse, the one they are beginning to fight in Season 5. Not the First, not jasmine, a one hundred year war against the Senior Partners and it's only just begun. Who did the Circle say was the vampire spoken of? Who did they say was the threat to them and the Senior Partners? Spike? No, Angel. He is the only it is speaking of and he gave it away. As Beck said, who knows what THE apocalypse is. There has been plenty of apocalypses, mind you. And just because the Circle thinks it's Angel, does not necessarily mean it is him. |
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Post by Allan on Apr 20, 2007 19:12:06 GMT 10
I don't think either of them were at a place where they deserved the Shanshu yet. Granted, they're both heroes, but...
- Spike really didn't have his soul for long. Not enough time to get all that much done.
- Angel has been fighting the good fight longer, but how much did he let go by before then?
I think both characters are well and truly on the path to "deserving" it, but don't think either one is there yet. I mean, look at the pettiness that ensued when they were fighting for the Perpetual Cup of Mountain Dew.
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Post by Glenn on Apr 20, 2007 21:07:36 GMT 10
Not only did he fight for it, but he went to get it. He knew that it may drive him insane with guilt, yet he did it anyway. Angel never wanted a soul, he just got one and suffered because of it. Then, because of his soul and conscience, he started to help people. Oh please. I thought Spike stammering and muttering about Angel [not mentioning how bad it is when you first get your soul shows that Spike didn't think that he would go insane. Angelus never wanted a soul but what does that have to do with the atonement of Angel? Absolutely nothing. So now Angel simply fighting the good fight without caring about some big cosmic reward at the end of it all is a bad thing? I think Angel's speech to Kate in Epiphany was superb, that after he realised there is no beating the bad guys in the long run that the smallest bit of kindness is the greatest thing in the world. [/quote] When Angel had his destiny taken from him in "The House Always Wins" didn't they look into it and notice that his destiny was to play a major part in the apocalypse? |
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Post by jeanvic on Apr 21, 2007 1:46:23 GMT 10
Oh please. I thought Spike stammering and muttering about Angel [not mentioning how bad it is when you first get your soul shows that Spike didn't think that he would go insane. Angelus never wanted a soul but what does that have to do with the atonement of Angel? Absolutely nothing. I agree. I specifically remember Spike leanign against the cross saying, "Why didn't Angel tell me?" Spike didn't know. In fact, Spike always considered that having a soul made Angel a puff so that shows what he thinks of having one. He never truly understood the impliucations of having one and he didn't truly understand it until Damage. Plus, it isn't about how you get your soul, it's about how you use it. Slayer were chosen, they didn't fight for their powers. Does that make them any less heroes? Again I wholeheartedly agree. Angel, even when he had the shanshu, never did it for that. Even then he didn't consider it as real. Spike's appearance just made it more real because he saw it as his one last connection to the world. He thought it gave him a purpose but he realised that he didn't need it to be a part of the world in NFA, possibly his greatest moment. If I'm not mistaken, Spike still believes he will get it at the end. What's he fighting for? Again, I agree. Evidence says its Angel in Season 4, when Spike had a soul and even Jasmine who can see eons into the future says it belongs to Angel. I'm sure she knew Spike had a soul at that time though. So, it's all there and all things point to Angel. |
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Post by Beck on Apr 21, 2007 9:55:42 GMT 10
Jasmine wasn't a reliable source of information. And having an important part to play in the apocolpyse, who's to say Spike doesn't as well? I still don't think there is any hard proof that the Shanshu belongs to Angel. In any case, I believe both are as worthy as each other to Shanshu - so I voted neither.
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Post by Kana on Apr 21, 2007 17:54:22 GMT 10
The House Always Wins is ambiguous too. They say that he is a vampire with a soul, now it's uncertain whether they mean that Angel is going to be a major player in the Apocalypse (which one is uncertain) or if they new that Angel is A vampire with a soul and so they assume he's the one. They only said he was going to play a major part in the Apocalypse, but they could have said the same thing of Spike if he was in Angel's position. They don't state in that ep that Angel will Shanshu.
I agree with Beck about Jasmine, she was a liar and manipulator. She said...
"Remember the prophecy, Angel? The one that says in the time of the apocalypse, you'd play a major part? How you never knew whether you'd be on the side of good or evil? Well, now you know. Thanks to you, this frail, little Power That Was has just enough strength in her to wipe out your whole species. And it's all on your hands."
She may just have said that to get at Angel and she didn't even get to carry through her threat anyway because Conner killed her, so Jasmine was either wrong or lying.
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Post by jeanvic on Apr 21, 2007 21:53:31 GMT 10
Why was she lying or wrong Kana? She may have been telling the truth but couldn't do what she wanted because Connor killed her. She didn't know he would. So why was she lying or wrong?
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Post by Kana on Apr 21, 2007 22:20:20 GMT 10
Well she may have been lying because she wanted to dog Angel. The burden of VwaS is a huge one so this would demoralise him knowing that it was down to him that the world was destroyed. Jasmine seemed kind of pissed off that Angel took away her powers. The wrong is about the fact that she was wrong about destroying mankind and Angel being responsible (as being the VwaS who is a major player in that particular respect) so she may have been wrong about Angel being the VwaS overall. She may have either assumed or wanted to dog Angel. I'm not saying that Angel isn't I'm just saying I agree with Beck that Jasmine is an unreliable source.
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Post by Lexie on May 1, 2007 10:35:57 GMT 10
Okay *takes a deep breath* I doubt I am goingto be able to put all my thoughts down clearly, but I'll give it a try. Those of you who know me the longest know how I feel about the Shanshu prophecy in general. Clarification: I like waht it stands for, I like what it added to the show, I like how it gave Angel a tangiable goal, but he didn't fight for only that reason. However, I don't like the idea of it ever happening, at least not for Angel. We saw human Angel in IWRY and though I love that episode a lot of what I like about Angel dissapeared. We wouldn't have that problem with Spike because besides the fact that he stopped being evil he didn't change *that* much once he got a soul. I'm also a little cynical about it: I really don't think the Powers would ever allow it to happen That being said, I really feel that Angel deserves it more. It's kind of a different angel than all of you, but we all know my obsession... Anyway, Angel's existence is a lot harder than Spike's. Don't jump on me yet.  This is for many reasons. One, Angel's visciousness as a soulless demon far out weighs Spike's. Spike was a killer, but for Angel it was all about the evil. Angel saw it as *art* He "would have considered Dana a masterpiece." Two, we have seen that it is *very* difficult for Angel to stay in control. His soulless side seems very close to the surface. Also, Angel's vampiric side is what makes him who he is. For Spike his human side makes him who he is. I feel Spike never really lost the William in him, just as Angel never lost the Angelus in him. We see that even with a soul, Angel can be ruthless. Angel realizes all of this. We saw how scared of himself he was in Buffy Season 1. Angel knows what's inside of him--a thing that yearns for evil. How would you feel faced with that knowledge? Also, Angel has never been truly accepted--by anyone, even the women he loves. Any willingness anyone had to accept him went out the window after Buffy Season 2 . I don't blame them, but it's a fact. It took Cordelia and Wes a long time to look at him as only their friend, not friend and demon who could go evil at any second. Gunn never truly accepted him. Spike didn't have it easy with the scoobies, but besides Buffy he wasn't really close to any of them. Okay. *sighs* I see Angel as more of a hero because he persists through all of that. He doesn't give up the good fight just because things aren't going well on a personal level. Moving on. Yes, I like Angel more than Spike, but I am not going to say Angel is *better* than Spike. As I said, I think Angel has it has it harder, but I still acknowledge Spike's heroness (I don't think that's a word...) I would like to say that I don't see the time Spike spent helping when he didn't have a soul as heroic. He was doing it because he couldn't hurt humans, but could hurt demons and he wanted to get into Buffy's pants. As of the end of Season 5 I actually don't think either deserve it. Not yet. It hasn't been long enough. If it were ever happen I think Angel deserves it at least *slightly* more than Spike. But as I said, I don't think either will get it. The Powers are like that. |
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Post by Kana on May 1, 2007 15:57:17 GMT 10
Completely agree with that. I certainly wouldn't like to see it. I too like the hope it represents for Angel because it rounds him out as a character and...I'm just going to start repeating what you said lol. I think the main thing that endears me is that Angel has a limit on his happiness. Spike at the very least can be happy so when you see Angel brooding after his numerous losses you at least want to give him a hug if not a Shanshu lol. I actually think that was due to his upbringing. Liam had morality instilled in him at a young age but the hypocrisy and possibly abuse from his father caused Liam to become frustrated as lose hope for himself as good person. So has Angelus he gained a sort of purity he could never get as Liam. Deep down he wanted his father's approval or at the very least say that he loves him Liams'Dad: I fear for you lad. Liam: Is that the only thing you can find in your heart for me now father? (possibly paraphrased) My heart bleed for him then. Liam's rage manifested into the evil that is Angelus. I think however, contrary to what I said before that Liam had a greater propensity for darkness than William. So Angel doesn't just fight his vampiric nature he has to fight against the darker elements of his pysche, like Faith. I'll probably get jumped on for this but I think Angel has had a lot more difficult choices to make and has had a lot of burdens. Angel: You want to know what my problem is? I'm screwed, that's my problem. I can't win. I'm trying to atone for a hundred years of unthinkable evil. News flash: I never can! Never going to be good enough. Now I got Wolfram and Hart dogging me. It's too much! 200 highly intelligent law school graduates working fulltime driving me crazy. Why the hell is everyone so surprised that it's working? But no, it's "Angel, why are you so cranky? Angel, you should lighten up, you should smile. You should wear a nice plaid. I actually feel for him there. Angel takes responsibility for his actions, as he should yet he's under a lot pressure. Much in the same way Buffy had the pressure of being THE Slayer, Angel had the burden of being THE vampire with a soul something Spike has never had. Although that said he had the plight of being 'The other one'. The thing that gets me is that Spike almost killed Wood for killing him and threatened to do it again so makes me wonder if it's circumstance that kept Spike 'purer' than Angel. Absolutely. Angel fights himself as much as he fights injustice. That's part of his problem but that's part of what I like about his arc and character. This no fault of the characters but Spike has always been more connected, even when he was ghost at W&H. He even seemed to know people at W&H, playing poker with them and such. At the very least William had a happy childhood with his mother and Angel knew the woman of his dreams loved him back. It shows in THAW, that helping people is part of who Angel is. I'm not saying that makes him better than Spike but it's worth mentioning  . I'm with you on this one. Although I think heroism would be a better word . I think Spike is Shells proved to me that he is up there with Angel because I admired his reasons for fighting. It's about giving what left of your life for the fight because you believe in the cause. I think he loved Buffy, but I will never judge his actions without a soul. I don't blame him or praise him. I only do that when he has a soul. I'm not sure lol. People talk about time limit but I don't really see it that way necessarily. I don't blame them for the soulless actions nor do I blame Angel for his inaction for 100 years, he didn't do that out of malice, he was just lost. Personally they are both worthy in my book, they are still care more about humanity more than the average human. Virginia: Most people don't acknowledge the evil let alone try to fight it.
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Post by Glenn on May 14, 2007 7:11:36 GMT 10
If a vampire ever does Shanshu then that means that the other vampire is dead or soulless once again. The prophecy states that "the" vampire with the soul will play a major part in the apocalypse and then be rewarded. It doesnt say "one of" the vampires with a soul. I always find those people who say that Spike did what the prophecy says in Chosen and therefore should Shanshu highly strange. Its not just a major role in the apocalypse but they also have to survive the coming darkness, some apocalyptic battles, a few plagues, and fiends that will be unleashed from hell. Spike has yet to do that. Angel already has the advantage in that area. He has killed many fiends from Hell and even staved off a plague. Not to mention a number of apocalyptic battles. At the moment it is very much in Angels favour |
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Post by jeanvic on May 15, 2007 6:36:21 GMT 10
I'm just spitballing here but I am going to mention the final battle between good and evil that was mentioned in Fray. That is said to have been won by the slayer and her friends and all evil was sucked out of the world. All demons, all magics etc. Now, what if that means that the demon is sucked out of one of our vampires and they become human? It could happen that way.
Now, I have always viewed Angel and Angelus as separate people, a topic I have been discussing with Kana. Now, if they are separate and the demon is sucked out of Angel, does that not just leave a human?
In any case I will always want Angel to shanshu because of the things he has lost and yet still he fights. People talk about things Spike has done but they don't take into account what Angel has done. Spike fought for a soul for Buffy, a soul he didn't understand the ramifications of. In IWRY, Angel asked the oracles to turn back time so he would become a vampire again, a vampire that was cursed and can never experience perfect happiness, just to help the world. He understood what he was giving up and taking back yet he did it so he could help. Spike can experience perfect happiness even if he lives another 1000 years. Angel can't. Angel deserved the shanshu even then in my books. He has lost his family, his son to a degree and he has had so much more taken from him yet still he goes on. Yes Spike is fighting for the people like Angel now but when it comes to the pain richter scale, he ain't hitting anywhere near Angel's needle.
I would love to see Angel shanshu but I would hate to see Spike go to hell. Like he says, "That ain't the place heroes go." He's right. Neither of them deserves that but at the moment only one of them deserves the shanshu. He affirmed that in my opinion when he gave it up in NFA.
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Post by Kana on May 15, 2007 8:37:05 GMT 10
Haven't got a clue, I haven't read Fray, I'm intrigued to see how it all plays out. Wes hoever says that the battle is not specifically mentioned in the prophecy.
Well we sort of saw this in IWRY. Essentially, the demon was destroyed and the human in him lived on. Under either theory it works.
I think that's the main reason I feel for Angel, him having a limit on his happiness.
Well I'm a bit irksome about the deserving thing. A lot of people talk about Spike saving the world as if he's got one up on Angel in that respect. This kind of bothers me because it assumes that Angel wouldn't do the same thing but it's more or less circumstantial because of Buffy's choice but that said it has it's own intrinsic value that I don't compare to Angel. It's the same with the signing away the Shanshu. If some thought that Spike wouldn't do the same then I'll say again it's circumstantial because we don't know what Spike would do in such a scenario but Spike was never presented with that opportunity.
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This is for many reasons. One, Angel's visciousness as a soulless demon far out weighs Spike's. Spike was a killer, but for Angel it was all about the evil. Angel saw it as *art* He "would have considered Dana a masterpiece." Two, we have seen that it is *very* difficult for Angel to stay in control. His soulless side seems very close to the surface. Also, Angel's vampiric side is what makes him who he is. For Spike his human side makes him who he is. I feel Spike never really lost the William in him, just as Angel never lost the Angelus in him. We see that even with a soul, Angel can be ruthless.
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