Willows Relationships

[Beck]

That wasn't simply a mistake, that was abandoning her lover when she was needed most. That is not on imo, and unforgivable. I didn't say she loved her less than Oz did, I don't believe you can measure how much someone loves another. Willow was a better person AFTER overcoming her addiction and that was something Tara played no part in because she left. Willow did not become a better person while she was with Tara, she was always sweet and kind, her confidence actually grew with Oz and then continued on as she got older. Imo had nothing to do with Tara. While she was with Tara, she went off the rails and abused magicks. Whats important in a relationship is loving each other and supporting each other through EVERYTHING. Its not abandoning your lover in their time of need. What is important is helping each other through the tough times, not bailing out because you can't handle it. Tara may have been a nice person, but in the end she proved to be a bad girlfriend. She stayed while everything was peachy and left when it got hard. HOW does that make her a good girlfriend?

As for emotion, I rarely saw any from Tara and Willow together Oz wasn't an overly emotional person, but the emotion was there (again, Choices is a prime example)

[Allan]

I agree 100% with Beck here.

I feel I've got more to add, but nothing's coming to me right now.

[Kana]

I don't think we should be too hard on Tara. I can understand what she did. Relationships need trust and Willow was abusing Tara's trust, by not only lying and but controlling the person. How can you be in a relationship with someone like that? Love isn't simply abouting in my humble opinion, it's about give and take and respecting each other. Willow crossed that line. I'm not saying Tara was perfect in this occasion but her actions were understandable. I don't think Tara was a bad girlfriend but at the time Willow was. You need give and take.

[Allan]

It is definitely give and take.

But addiction is a problem, it's not about being a bad person. Willow had a problem, which was harming her. Granted, Willow wasn't perfect throughout the ordeal, but it wasn't exactly like she was going out of her way to hurt Tara.

Tara simply gave up on Willow.

[Glenn]

Its simple to relate this to a relationship between a person and a drug addict. They manipulate you, try to get money out of you to fuel their addiction. Not because they dont love the other person. Its simply what Willow was addicted to magic and using it to make their loved one forget an arguement is classic. Though in the real life case they are likely to abuse drugs themselves to forget the disagreement. You cant help it, its there and availiable so you do it. If you leave your loved one at the height of their addiction you are not helping them in any way. You think that by you leaving you can nap them out of it. What they are counting on is that you are the most important thing to them and that they will realise this when you are gone. Newsflash hair do, its not always about you. Drugs/Magic has taken over them. Tara was constantly saying that Willow was using magic as an easy solution. How did Tara think she would cope with an emotional blow. THE EASY WAY IS HOW. It was such a huge oversight on Tara's part.

All the way back in season 4 Oz expressed his concern to Buffy and Willow about Willow and her magic, relating it to when he wolfs out. That he touches something deep and dark and that its not fun. Do we really think Oz would have left Willow during her problems after saying how much he can relate to the feeling. He was slipping to his wolf side so he went away to sort it out after he hurt Willow and left again after he realised his wolf issue was still present around Willow. Willow slipped to her magic side but didnt have the will or strength of mind to self-help, not until she herself hurt a loved one in Dawn.

[Nico]

I pretty much agree, it swings both Ways, Personally, I disagreed with Tara Leaving Willow When she needed her Most, I understand why, her trust was broken , and I agree with what Glenn said, it was an emotional Blow for Willow, That would just send her down, it wouldnt help, The person you love walks out of your life, you are going to turn to the thing you are addicted to for comfort!.

The fact that Willow was addicted to the black arts, Tara leaving her dented Willows trust to, she felt like she was being abandoned.

Like was mentioned Tara had been saying Willow was using to much magick, she was worried about her, and as soon as Willow Begins to hit Rock Bottom, Using Magick on the people she loves, Tara Leaves, Its not about just letting the person know they have a problem, its about sticking with it, Helping them, The Further Willow Fell, the more she needed Tara to Catch her, and She didnt. She walked away when it counted.

[Kana]

It's a difficult one isn't it. Thinking about it Tara made a similar mistake to Giles by not finding the balance and being consistent from the start. Although it's understandable given Tara's character, she is very nuturing but not very confrontational. I disagree that Tara is a bad girlfriend though I think that's a bit harsh as no one is perfect and everyone makes mistakes in relationships and she was never morally obligated to stay with Willow.

We have to also remember that there is an element of responsibility on Willow's part as well. It's not a simple case of illness, Willow's pursuit of power comes from insecurity and a need for control (I hate to say it, but it does parallel Warren), I think Willow should have recognised these issues to late and realised where her behaviour was taking her. As much as we need help and support (yes I do see how Tara should have stayed) but it's about arriving at a place of self elightenment ourselves. I don't just think the responsibility lies with Tara, Anya points out they were all looking the other way when they clearly knew something was wrong. Nobody is completely blameless but Willow made some ill-advised choices and she had to take some responsibility to that.

I see her as someone who is very smart but emotionally she wasn't that mature. At a young age I could understand the concept of power and corruptability yet Willow seemed to miss this. The funny thing about addiction and personality is that there is a thin line. Tara could (or should) have been there to help (although she was supposed to have her friends, it shouldn't fall all on Tara) but Willow needed to arrive at that place herself.

[Beck]

Addicts don't work in that way though Kana. Drug addicts, alcoholics, Magick addict - its in a similar vein. Willow thought she did have it under control until it consumed her. Of course Willow is responsible for herself, but its extremely difficult - maybe impossible - for an addict to get better on their own. They need help. This was not simply a mistake, Tara showed that she was only willing to stick around when things were going well. She didn't have the courage to help Willow through it, so she left her when she was needed most. Thats inexcusable. Willow couldn't arrive at that place herself, she had an addiction which had taken her over. Yes Willow made bad choices, but as someone who loved her and KNEW she had an addiction and was out of control and needed help, Tara's behaviour is very wrong and yes, makes her a bad girlfriend. She was there with Willow when things were good, but once they got bad she left. She wouldn't help her.

[Glenn]

I liken it to Lorne's quote in Power Play if you just shift the names.

LORNE
Well, he's never had any to care about, has he? Not real power, even
as Angelus, and then just like that, he's king of the mountain. It's
quite a view from up there. Tends to make people want things. Even
if they start with the best intentions, Angel's seen real power, and
he's not looking away. He's gonna go for it, Wes.

Willow never had power and was pretty much bullied growing up. Then all of a sudden she was the most powerful person in her circle. She had real power and unfortunately (Lorne again )

LORNE
I mean, not to play an old saw, but power does traditionally corrupt.

[Kana]

I partially agree. Addicts need support but they have to realise the problem themselves and Willow hadn't reached that point. Like I said, I didn't totally blame Willow but I wouldn't put it all on Tara.

I believe (based mainly on my experience, not an expert) that personality is an influence and is the case with Willow. These situations rarely come ex nihilo usually has a background. I was attempting in the above post to understand some of these problems. I never said that Willow should be alone but she should arrive there by herself with support, which didn't necessarily have to be Tara (although I agree it would have nice if she was there). I don't think it was a simple case of Tara bailed (anymore than Giles simply bailing on Buffy), I look at Willow's violation which was the one of the worst kinds. Tara is only human and I do believe the issue is bigger than simply addiction, I think Willow's personality has to do with it as well. We're not talking about any addiction, we are talking about magic which is a very specific addiction, one that is consistent with Willow's low self esteem and need for control (which was as much of an issue in my opinion) Willow needed to find the balance within herself because as I see it attitude is very important in the use of magic. Again, I'm not simply coming down on Willow, I'm attempting understand the nature of her problem and also understand Tara's reasons rather than simply blaming her and calling her a bad girlfriend. This said, I think Tara should have been more consistent in her attitude (I'd say the same thing to Giles in that same ep). Confront her and be strong from the start.

[Allan]

I see the Tara/Giles comparisons moot.

Tara left Willow because it was too difficult to be with her. Granted, Tara felt betrayed, but she left Willow because it was too difficult. Willow "betrayed" her, and she couldn't bare to be around her.

Giles, on the other hand, left Buffy because he thought - for better or worse, which is subject for another debate - it was the right thing to do. He thought that Buffy needed to grow up, without his constant support. He did it to help her.

So, we have two characters - Tara, who left because she wasn't willing to help; and Giles who left so he could help.

They're opposites, really.

[Deleted]

admin said:

Spun off from the Kennedy thread, which relationship of Willow's did you like best and why?

I pick Oz. I loved the sweetness they shared together, and Oz's unassuming nature, and how he was always a gentleman. He always treated her well.

I totally agree! Willow/Oz is likely my all-time favorite Jossverse ship ever, and that's unlikely to change any time soon, so I'm a bit biased. I think they had quite a bit of chemistry and agree that despite the couple problems we did see them have, he always treated her well, always cared about her, etc.

While I can't really get mad at Joss for having her be the one who turned gay, because the most part I liked Tara, it does make it a bit harder when I want to write something Willow/Oz related. Anyway, I liked Tara most of the time and thought she and Willow had a connection, but I didn't find it quite as visible as it had been when she was with Oz. They certainly made for very close friends and I could have seen Tara being brought into the group in that capacity, but it would have taken a bit more to convince me that they were meant for each other.

As for Kennedy, while I dislike her character, my main problem with her relationship with Willow is that we as fans and, imo, Willow, were never given a chance to move past Tara's death. I wasn't ready to see Willow with someone else. I wanted to see her on her own for a bit, working through what had happened at the end of season 6 and taking some time for personal growth. In the more specific terms of Kennedy's personality, I don't think she was mature enough to just jump into a relationship like that--with anyone.

[Kana]

batmite79 said:

I see the Tara/Giles comparisons moot.

Tara left Willow because it was too difficult to be with her. Granted, Tara felt betrayed, but she left Willow because it was too difficult. Willow "betrayed" her, and she couldn't bare to be around her.

Giles, on the other hand, left Buffy because he thought - for better or worse, which is subject for another debate - it was the right thing to do. He thought that Buffy needed to grow up, without his constant support. He did it to help her.

So, we have two characters - Tara, who left because she wasn't willing to help; and Giles who left so he could help.

They're opposites, really.

I'm not talking about the overall comparisons, I'm talking about finding balance and consistency. Giles helped her too much and then suddenly left and Tara didn't speak up and then spoke up and suddenly left. Both actions are understandable but could have been handled with more consistency.

[Allan]

But Giles' leaving was an act of love.

Tara's was not.

[Kana]

That wasn't my point. I was looking at it from more of a consequentialist angle. I'm not blaming Giles and I believe he did the best he could do under the circumstances (like most parents I guess) but I don't believe leaving was the best option overall based upon consequence rather than intention.

Tara was I believed was doing the right thing by confronting Willow but perhaps she was hasty in leaving (I admit) but I wouldn't come down so hard on Tara, because it's difficult to help someone in these circumstances if your not certain they are wiping your memory about things that happened (much more invasive than an addict stealing from you in my opinion) so I don't simply blame Tara for the relationship failing which is what most people seem to be doing.

[Allan]

No, Tara's not the only one responsible for the relationship failing. Regardless of whether she left than and there, it was inevitably going to fail at some point.

But I think you're confusing the point here. She still gave up on Willow. She dumped the woman she loves, when she was needed most. It wasn't a good thing to do. It was weak.

[Kana]

I think you're confusing my point . The point was that Tara wasn't a necessarily a bad girlfriend. If Willow hadn't done anything at all to Tara then I'd understand but what she did was an incredible violation. I suppose the real question is, is Willow responsible for her actions? Because we're trying to look at something that doesn't really exist. I think Wilow has a problem but I think Willow should take some responsibility. She arrogantly ignored Tara's plee to slow down with magic and then violated her (possibly under the influence, we cannot know how much though). How would Tara know if everytime Willow slipped Willow wouldn't be making her forget. I can understand Tara's situation although I'm not saying it was the best thing to leave without giving Willow enough of a warning about the magics in the first place, but she did bring it up and Willow showed (in Tabula Rasa) an 'attitude' consistent with someone who sought control and dominance with a ounce of arrogance to boot. I felt for Willow but I don't agree that she is blameless.

[Nico]

I agree Willow is responsible for her actions, but only because she began over using magick, at the time she was to far gone, before that Willow would Never have done anything like that.

Taras telling willow she was over using only made Willow angrier, and more confused, to her she wasnt, it wasnt until after she hurt dawn, she and buffy removed every magical item from the house. Even Buffy was still there for Willow after she Almost killed her sister, god Even Dawn was supportive.

[Kana]

It's a difficult one, because I understand Tara and feel Willow's pain. When you're in a relationship you have to understand that your actions affect other people and Willow on a level didn't respect this. Like I said before there is an element of Willow's personality in that (poor self esteem being a element there which was confirmed when I read the transcript of Wrecked) but it took near tragic consequences (as you said Nico) for her to realise that. I just wish Tara stayed a little more or Willow had insight a little earlier. This was my original point to Beck that I don't think Tara was a bad girlfriend, her actions were understandable.

[Allan]

I wouldn't call Tara a "bad girlfriend", but I still think that her decision was bad. It really seems like she was taking the easy way out.

Willow is responsible for her actions (you don't see drunk drivers get let off by the police because they're alcoholics), but to me, I still think that if Tara really loved Willow, she'd stand by her.

If Oz was still in the picture, I could see him doing this.