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Post by Bre on Jan 14, 2007 15:09:48 GMT 10
This is the scenario Paulo and I were talking about earlier. Say there's William (willow) and Sara (tara). They are dating. William is an alchoholic (Willow is a magic-oholic). William is driving and hits Sara (Willow does the forgetful spell). Sara leaves William. Is she wrong? No! She was putting herself in danger (and probably her loved ones) by staying with him. They loved eachother, but Sara couldn't risk it. So I stand by Tara's decision to leave Willow.
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Post by Glenn on Jan 14, 2007 17:38:57 GMT 10
I dont think that scenario is connectable to what went on between Willow/Tara.
Tara's life was never in danger. Paulo said earlier that he cant see a drug addict manipulating their partner or stealing money from them as the same as doing a forgetful spell yet now can link it with beating someone while driving.
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Post by Beck on Jan 14, 2007 17:43:55 GMT 10
I agree its completely different. Tara was betrayed and treated shabbily, but it was by actions a non addicted Willow would NEVER have done. Alcoholics for example are NOT all violent, though they can do hurtful things. I would never abandon someone I loved in their greatest hour of need. Its as simple as that. Tara left and returned when things were rosy again. She came back when it was easy again. Sheesh, Dawn was nearly killed and after some initial anger (which from Tara was also natural) she stood by her friend and helped her all she could. THAT is what you do for someone you love when they need you, especially when you know its the addiction causing the hurtful behaviour.
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Post by Kana on Jan 14, 2007 21:14:19 GMT 10
I dont think that scenario is connectable to what went on between Willow/Tara. Tara's life was never in danger. Paulo said earlier that he cant see a drug addict manipulating their partner or stealing money from them as the same as doing a forgetful spell yet now can link it with beating someone while driving. Did I say that, I can't find that quote.  . Well this is just it addicted Willow wasn't a completely different person as I explained earlier. Willow should elements of narcissism and arrogance (most likely stemmed from poor self esteem) with her exchange with Giles. I do think her addiction was part of it but I think there was an element of attitude as well. It very much depends what the thing is. Some people may class a violation of the mind as worse. I suppose that's a personal value but we cannot necessarily place our own conceptions of love onto other people, I suppose it may come down to identification. I actually don't think it was as simple as that. She wasn't sure if things were ok between them but she rather impulsively jumped back in. But it can also be more difficult in a relationship when emotions are running high. Although I'm not sure that Tara should been so hasty I can understand her reaction, sometimes it's harder to stay when you're that in love and you have trouble trusting them. |
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Post by Allan on Jan 14, 2007 21:49:28 GMT 10
But she still came back after deciding that Willow was okay again. Did she stick with Willow through the tough times? No.
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Post by Kana on Jan 15, 2007 5:29:58 GMT 10
But she still came back after deciding that Willow was okay again. Did she stick with Willow through the tough times? No. The way I see it, it wasn't simply 'the tough times' it was in regards to what Willow did. |
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Post by Bre on Jan 15, 2007 6:28:55 GMT 10
I dont think that scenario is connectable to what went on between Willow/Tara. Tara's life was never in danger. Yes it was. Everyone's life was in danger while Willow was abusing her magics. |
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Post by Glenn on Jan 15, 2007 6:51:13 GMT 10
"Did I say that, I can't find that quote. ." This "Tara was I believed was doing the right thing by confronting Willow but perhaps she was hasty in leaving (I admit) but I wouldn't come down so hard on Tara, because it's difficult to help someone in these circumstances if your not certain they are wiping your memory about things that happened (much more invasive than an addict stealing from you in my opinion) so I don't simply blame Tara for the relationship failing which is what most people seem to be doing." I dont think that scenario is connectable to what went on between Willow/Tara. Tara's life was never in danger. Yes it was. Everyone's life was in danger while Willow was abusing her magics. Willow never physically hurt anyone. The only time that came about was after Tara left and Willow went off the rails. |
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Post by Bre on Jan 15, 2007 6:59:50 GMT 10
She didn't yet. But she easily could have. I just don't understand why you guys are putting most of the blame on Tara. If Willow was a stronger person she wouldn't have gone evil after Tara left her. Tara had the right to leave whenever she wanted.
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Post by Glenn on Jan 15, 2007 7:23:28 GMT 10
Willow didnt turn evil. She became addicted. The same powers that were causing harm were the same ones that she had used to bring Tara's mental health back in the first place. I dont blame Tara for Willow becoming addicted (well not entirely) and she did have the right to leave whenever she wanted. Doesnt makes it the best of choices though, or the right one, how would Tara had felt if Willow had ended up overdosing and killing herself.
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Post by Bre on Jan 15, 2007 7:35:17 GMT 10
Well I would hope she didn't blame herself, because it wouldn't have been her fault.
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Post by Nico on Jan 15, 2007 8:03:29 GMT 10
I think it makes sense That Tara leaving took Willow over the edge, If The love of my life walked out on me and I couldnt understand why he did it, I would turn to something to ease my pain, something I knew would take it away, something that made things better, I wouldnt care about the future i'd care about the now, and taking away the pain.
To Willow it was Magick, its what she knew, it was her quick fix, it was what she wanted to use to lesson her pain, Is it Taras fault she did that? Yes and No, Willow is responsible for the way she chose to handle that Hurt, but Tara could've handled the situation alot better, if it was a new relationship, I wouldnt blame Tara At all, but for the length of time they have been together, threw the good she leaves when it gets bad.
I dont Blame Tara for what happend to Willow, but she definetly didn't help things by walking out. If you choose to love someone you try your damned hardest to keep them on there feet, Like Beck said, Tara returned when things were Rosy.
Its funny how tara is going on about willow using to much magick but as soon as she gets a 110% positive sign, she leaves.
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Post by Allan on Jan 15, 2007 8:08:12 GMT 10
She didn't yet. But she easily could have. I just don't understand why you guys are putting most of the blame on Tara. If Willow was a stronger person she wouldn't have gone evil after Tara left her. Tara had the right to leave whenever she wanted. Okay, say you're in a relationship, and the two of you are in love. Say you're an alcoholic. Now, if your lover bailed on you in your hour of need, are you saying that you wouldn't be hitting the alcohol even harder? It's logical that Tara leaving would have had a negative impact on Willow, and if Tara loved her and wanted her to come through it, leaving her, on her own, to her own devices, is the stupidest, most ill-conceived, and let's not forget selfish, thing that Tara could have done. |
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Post by Bre on Jan 15, 2007 11:09:40 GMT 10
Yes it woud be harder, but that's my fault. It has nothing to do with the other person. If I'm an alcoholic, my partner didn't get me that way, I did. And say I would start drinking more out of depression, I can't put the blame on my partner because I have the problem. I see blaming my partner as part of the disease. When you're an alcoholic you see everyone else as the blame, not yourself. You don't think your doing anything wrong. That was Willow's problem. She didn't see her magic as the problem. Tara did, Tara let Willow know that, but Willow ignored it. What was Tara supposed to do if Willow wasn't listening?
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Post by Shaun on Jan 15, 2007 11:15:45 GMT 10
Try to make her listen. Be there for her. Willow began using magic with good intentions, then it took her over. Yes she's to blame for that, but Tara has to share some of the blame for leaving and making it worse. It was a very bad decision. People with addictions won't admit to having a problem until they realise they need help. Its the people who love them that are meant to be there to help with that.
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Post by Bre on Jan 15, 2007 11:26:22 GMT 10
And I agree, but there's a point when only the addicts can help themselves. And that's what I saw. Tara did what she could. She tried to help Willow out, but Willow just wouldn't cooperate. Willow lost her chance when she was messing with eveyone's minds.
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Post by Allan on Jan 15, 2007 11:26:27 GMT 10
Addiction goes further than it simply being "your fault". I think that's a naive way of looking at it.
But if you truly love someone, you would want to see them get through it, and get back to being the person you fell inlove with, wouldn't you? In the long run, wouldn't helping them get through it be more fulfilling than running?
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Post by Bre on Jan 15, 2007 11:43:01 GMT 10
Well I think it's kind of ignorant to think that you're not putting yourself in danger trying to help the addict. And if Willow wasn't willing to get help, what was Tara supposed to do? Willow didn't try to get help until after it was too late, after her "evil" rampage.
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Post by Nico on Jan 15, 2007 12:14:09 GMT 10
No she tried to get help after she almost Killed Dawn, it was after Tara died she went evil, but Before that Tara and Willow were back together, because she was (apparently) better which obviously we know now that she wasnt  I do agree with something you said though Bre, Willow didnt want help, she wasnt accepting it, and it was largely her fault te relationship feel apart, but I still think Taras decision to leave was the wrong choice. |
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Post by Beck on Jan 15, 2007 12:22:38 GMT 10
Leaving was wrong. I think it is that simple. I know Willow at that stage didn't want help, most addicts dont until they realise they have a problem!
Addiction isn't about blame. Its about helping to get over it. Willow did some very wrong things, but Tara's decision to leave made things much worse. And Tara should have stayed to help her through it, she was in danger every day of her life while she was dating Willow and helping hunt demons.
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